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Abolitionist Mariame Kaba is the founder of Project NIA and the author of the New York Times bestseller, We Do This ‘Til We Free Us: Abolitionist Organizing and Transforming Justice.

Kaba and Dr. Kendi have a profound discussion on why mass surveillance, police, punishment, and incarceration will never create a safe society—and what will.

For a transcript of this episode, click here.



The Host

Dr. Ibram X. Kendi

Dr. Ibram X. Kendi is the host of Be Antiracist. He is the Andrew W. Mellon Professor in the Humanities at Boston University and the founding director of the BU…