Rick Rubin
In addition to being a podcast host, Frederick Jay “Rick” Rubin is an American record producer and former co-president of Columbia Records. Along with Russell Simmons, he is the co-founder…
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Brandon Flowers’ new album, Thrasher, is a beautifully written ode to the Southwest where he grew up. It’s a deeply personal record, shining a light on the people close to him, the lives they’ve lived, and the difficulties they’ve navigated between his childhood in Henderson, Nevada, and Payson, Utah. It also explores some of the dead ends Brandon himself might have easily gone down had he not found another path.
Of course, that path led to extraordinary success with the Killers and a sound Brandon describes as a mix of Britpop and British post-punk. But the music that surrounded him growing up was country. His dad and his neighbors played Johnny Cash, Waylon Jennings, and other country greats. It was a sound Brandon never quite left behind, and one he developed a deeper connection to over the years.
So for Thrasher, he went to Nashville’s legendary RCA Studio A, where he recorded with some of the great musicians in the genre: Charlie McCoy, who played on Bob Dylan’s legendary Nashville sessions; Bruce Bouton, who has played pedal steel with Garth Brooks from the very beginning of his career; and David Rawlings, Gillian Welch’s longtime collaborator.
On today’s episode, Brandon Flowers talks about making Thrasher, what it felt like to finally unlock the door that country music had been holding open for him his whole life, and the stories the album carries with it: the family members, the memories, and the particular texture of growing up Mormon and working-class in the American West.
Pushkin. When were you in Japan most recently?
00:13
Speaker 2
March, I think. Jeremy, would I go in March? I think so. It's like my kids' spring break. They get this big break, and that is where they.
00:21
Speaker 1
Want to go. Like all the time or every time?
00:24
Speaker 2
We've gone twice, and it's like, for whatever reason, they just, it's wild, you know? It's so different.
00:32
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:32
Speaker 2
And they just love that, I think. The problem is we did the almost, we almost mirrored the trip identically, like the restaurants and, and the spots, you know? And I'm just like, we got to switch it up a little, but they're just like, no, this was this cause it was good. That was good.
00:47
Speaker 1
That's always a problem with life is you find something you want to, do you like, and it's like, do you stick, do you, you know, like, do you go to order the same thing at the restaurant or switch it up?
00:56
Speaker 2
You need that variety, that spice.
00:58
Speaker 1
Cause it could ruin Japan next year. You know? Congratulations on the album, man. It's a really amazing, it's a great record. Oh, thanks. Yeah. When it got sent over, they're like, you should give a listen to Brandon Flowers' country album. It might seem strange, but we think you'll like it. And I was like, actually, you know what? It doesn't seem that strange to me when I put it on. I was like, oh, he's doing it. He's doing it for real.
01:22
Speaker 2
Yeah, we went for it.
01:23
Speaker 1
Yeah, you really did.
01:25
Speaker 2
We went to the heart of it. We went to Nashville and did it. That was the appropriate place to do it.
01:30
Speaker 1
How did that transpire? Did you know to go there or what?
01:33
Speaker 2
I didn't. I feel embarrassed about it. I got to give credit to the producers. It was, you know, Rado and Sean Everett. And they just were all, as we were writing the songs and making demos, it was like, we got to go to Nashville. And I sort of, I wasn't kicking against it, but I was just like, this studio's good. They were in Provo.
01:50
Speaker 1
In Provo, Utah.
01:51
Speaker 2
And, you know, Burbank's fine by me, whatever.
01:56
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:56
Speaker 2
But we ended up just booking some time at the iconic RCA, and it was definitely the right move.
02:03
Speaker 1
How did they sell you.
02:04
Speaker 2
On it, ultimately? It was just, they were talking about the musicianship and the people that were there that they were going to assemble, and I was like, all right, I'm going to just go with it.
02:17
Speaker 1
Were you aware of it as a, I mean, obviously everyone's aware of Nashville as a musical place, but were you aware of, the sort of studio legacy of Nashville.
02:27
Speaker 2
Not until, again, I don't know if I should, I'm embarrassed to say it. No, I didn't know exactly, you know, what transpired just in this room that we were recording in and in the room next door. So many magical. What was in those rooms?
02:42
Speaker 1
It's RCA that you recorded, right?
02:44
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, everything. I mean, Roy Orbison, Dolly Parton, Waylon Jennings, everything, everything. chris christopherson every you know it's just um really incredible that's just the surface yeah.
03:00
Speaker 1
Are you a person who believes that rooms hold a certain.
03:04
Speaker 2
It has to yeah i mean there's there is a you walk in and you can feel you know you can you can feel it there's this there's it's kind of tangible sometimes and there's just something we're in the big room in rca and it's just It's just one of the great live rooms in the world. And there's been so many great bands in there. And it's so many great recordings.
03:25
Speaker 1
Did you help in picking out the players?
03:28
Speaker 2
No, again, I'm embarrassed. No, I did no hand in it. Well, I did have some. We had Griff and Taylor from Dawes. Great. So I knew I always wanted them to be a part of it.
03:40
Speaker 1
Had you known them for a while? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
03:41
Speaker 2
So we've been friends. And it was like, so Griff was on drums for most of the songs. And then Taylor was on guitar, and then we had some other, and then obviously seven other people. Yeah.
03:50
Speaker 1
What was it like? I mean, you have a couple of solo records, but I imagine even those were people you were more familiar with. And then, of course, you have The Killers, your band, you've been playing with a long time. So how odd is it to play with people you don't necessarily have a rapport with?
04:06
Speaker 2
At first, it felt a little intimidating because of the... caliber of musicians that these guys are. And I started to understand what I was getting myself into. Um, but luckily I was sort of in the middle of touring when it happened. So I was sort of in good singing form and we went and recorded it like you're supposed to record, like, you know, a band playing the songs live. Um, I haven't done that in 20 years. Yeah.
04:30
Speaker 1
Yeah.
04:31
Speaker 2
You know, we all played and it wasn't one guy at a time in front of the computer. Um, it was everybody playing and, and yeah, we haven't done, I haven't done that since Sam's town. And so, We did it, and they loved that. That was something that they have also sort of grown away from. It's just changed.
04:48
Speaker 1
Even in Nashville?
04:50
Speaker 2
Yeah, even in Nashville. So it was great. They loved that I was singing with them. I think they're accustomed to people kind of coming in and doing vocals later. And so they instantly, there was a bond, I think, right away when they saw that I was going to go and sing these songs, and we were all going to sweat it out together. and instantly you know it yeah we sort of connected there.
05:12
Speaker 1
Did you sing in the room with them or did.
05:13
Speaker 2
You yeah i was in the room yeah in the room really great and it's so much i had a i had a great you know partitions you know the drummer's over here so i can't really see him but i can see the steel player and he was sort of my gauge for how things were going his name is bruce he's just like iconic steel player you know but he's also he wears a lot um on his face so i was like i knew how everything was going by bruce's scowl or smile or And he's emotional. We get emotional about the emotional songs. And, and it was, it was, it was actually a real comfort being next to Bruce.
05:46
Speaker 1
So he was your gauge, not only to like maybe how the take was going, but also how the song was resonating.
05:53
Speaker 2
And that was, that was interesting to see. Cause he really, seeing his emotions was, was a part that stood out to me. It was like, okay, that made me feel, you know, like maybe I, I, I'm not such an outlier. Maybe I could, you know, I got a shot here.
06:07
Speaker 1
Do you need, like, I'm wondering, it's funny. I mean, I'm similar. I think a lot of people are like, just sometimes if you're in a room and you're uncomfortable, you pick a person and they just, for whatever reason, end up becoming like your source of, your rock for that, whatever, however long you're in that room. Is that something you feel you need live as well? Or that you, or do you, is that a whole different?
06:28
Speaker 2
No, I think, well, if it depends on what world we're in, if we're in the killer's world, I do think I, get a lot of um security having venucci there on drums behind me and the you know he just has a a way of playing and an intensity and uh reliability that i'm accustomed to and and and that it makes me feel like i'm where i'm supposed to be.
06:54
Speaker 1
Yeah has that been true like the entire run with the Or has it changed?
06:59
Speaker 2
Since we started? I think it's grown over time, you know? Because in the early days, you're playing bars and you're getting to know each other. We didn't grow up together, you know? The band sort of came together piece by piece and then just sort of catapulted into the stratosphere. And so it wasn't that thing. We don't have that thing. Just be honest about it. You know, we weren't like childhood friends. We had to grow to like each other or... As time went on.
07:29
Speaker 1
Well, now you have 20-something years. Yeah. As good as probably growing up together at this point, right?
07:34
Speaker 2
Yeah.
07:35
Speaker 1
But back to Thrasher. Why did you depart from recording live for almost 20 years?
07:42
Speaker 2
I think it's just, it's not laziness. It's just easy.
07:46
Speaker 1
Makes me think it may be a little lazy.
07:48
Speaker 2
Well, it's just easier.
07:50
Speaker 1
Yeah.
07:51
Speaker 2
We went and made the third record, and it was a little bit, The Killers made the third record. So after Sam's Time, we'd record live. the third record was more pop leaning, um, and more the producer that we chose, Stuart Price, who's an amazing producer. This, he's just works with logic and, you know, logic versus produce on it. So he's a logic guy and he came from the dance world. Um, and he's an amazing DJ and record producer. And so he had just made like that Madonna's, uh, confessions record was, was a massive record and he'd done a great, um, a really great remix of Mr. Brightside that had done really well, the Jacques Lacan remix. I remember that. And so we're like, let's check this guy out. And so we went in and did a record with him. And that was where it started, for better or for worse. But it was just, that's how he recorded. And I was like, oh, this is kind of fast. And just kind of on the fly and taking turns. And we just, I don't know, we drifted away. I think a lot of people have done that.
08:51
Speaker 1
Prior to that, what slowed you down? Was there any particular... As a group, the dynamic in your group, was it not being able to sort of iterate quickly enough?
09:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, no, it wasn't a problem. It was just, it is more convenient to do it that way. But you lose something also, I think. What you avoid is a band sitting in a room and fighting over parts. You know, and that can be a blessing for a band. Maybe it kept us... From breaking up over a fight, you know, over a bridge in a middle eight in a song or something like that, you know. So you avoid that uncomfortable situation. But you also maybe miss out on magical moments. And so there is something to maybe mourn the loss of.
09:37
Speaker 1
Yeah.
09:38
Speaker 2
But I'm going back to it now. I think the next Killers record we will, you know, I've learned a lot from making this record in Nashville.
09:45
Speaker 1
Yeah.
09:45
Speaker 2
I think we'll definitely implement that back into the next Killers record.
09:49
Speaker 1
That re-inspired you. Yeah.
09:50
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. To play, we should record live. That's who we are, yeah.
09:54
Speaker 1
It is different, though. I mean, I guess, you know, those Nashville sessions, though, I mean, they're so efficient. So I think you always... also probably avoid the sitting around.
10:01
Speaker 2
Well, that was the thing I keep coming back to. I would watch these guys make these decisions. It sounds like I'm being funny, but they would make a decision on the fly that a band today is going to break up over a fight about this kind of a decision. And they are, that is, they cut that shit out. Like, it is just like, we know what, you know, it's, you do, you just move on. You make the decision, you move on. Everybody makes the note, play the song. It's just, there's just, it was amazing to watch.
10:28
Speaker 1
Do they tell you they're going to do it or is it just, we all.
10:30
Speaker 2
Agree, but it's just like, it's, there's so much behind it. It's just like, this is why this is, you know, this, no, you know, somebody will make their, say their piece. And if they have, these are guys that have been doing this for 60 years, some of them. And it's just like, they know why that this is going to work.
10:46
Speaker 1
Speaking of, you know, these guys, some of these guys playing 60 years on, um, the second track, One of Us. Yeah. Your, your harmonica player, Charlie, who is like, he's been around a long time, played on like Highway 61 and Blonde on Blonde, Dylan's records.
11:03
Speaker 2
He played on, he played on The Boxer.
11:05
Speaker 1
He did?
11:05
Speaker 2
Simon and Garfunkel. He played on Pretty Woman.
11:09
Speaker 1
I didn't know that.
11:10
Speaker 2
Played on Leonard Cohen stuff. Just, he's played on everything. And, Yeah, incredible. He owns one of us. It's like Charlie featuring Brandon, that song. ¶ ¶ ¶ They slapped a decal of your face ¶ ¶ An 18-wheeler smiling like you would ¶ ¶ If we were over to your place on Thanksgiving.
11:35
Speaker 1
¶ ¶ In the neighborhood ¶ ¶.
11:37
Speaker 2
You were from the true north, strong and free ¶ ¶ But we never raised a fuss ¶ You were always one of us.
11:47
Speaker 1
You were always one of us.
11:50
Speaker 2
Oh, there ain't a thing to discuss. Miss you like the rain, miss the bus.
11:55
Speaker 1
Roll sign, read it.
11:57
Speaker 2
Someplace, bluebird sing. And that about just sums it up. Life ain't but a dream, it's a bitter cup. Nothing stays the same, it'll make you cry.
12:06
Speaker 1
It'll make you cuss. You were always one of us. His harmonic plane is like so wistful and kind of has a joy to it. And then there's like a verve. It's almost how you sing it too. It took me a handful of listens to realize it's not necessarily a happy song.
12:27
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's a little bit of a sad song. It's about my brother-in-law. He passed away a couple of years back. But it's one of those things where there's family that you're born into and then there's family that you find. And he was in that category for me. And sometimes those are just as powerful or more powerful than other people.
12:46
Speaker 1
Yeah, sometimes much more.
12:47
Speaker 2
And so I just loved him. My sister's quite a bit older than me, 17 years my senior. So when they were married, I was a kid. So he was like my brother. And so I just wanted to honor him with the song. And there's this amazing thing that can happen that I find within this genre, within the genre where sadness and playfulness... can kind of walk hand in hand. And people like John Prine are masters of that. I always come back to that. But so that was kind of, I was definitely able to play with that on this song.
13:21
Speaker 1
I mean, even from your own catalog, I would say that there's instances of that, you know, where, I mean, on Killer's records, there's certain songs that, I mean, maybe the first hundred listens, I had no clue that the song was a little darker or a little, you know, there was something under the surface. Yeah. Yeah.
13:37
Speaker 2
It's, it's, I think I have a knack for that. I don't know why. I think just whenever you start to tell stories, you can't help but go there sometimes.
13:49
Speaker 1
At least I can't. To go to sort of some of the darker.
13:51
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think so. I have a tendency or just maybe it's emotional or sadder things.
13:59
Speaker 1
Do you find yourself drawn also in terms of the things you like to sadder or darker?
14:05
Speaker 2
Those emotional responses. I'm an emotional guy. I used to think that that was maybe a weakness. And now I'm 45 and I see it as a strength. And so I think that I've always been like that. I've always been touched by music or movies or moments or whatever it is. And when I know maybe other people wouldn't have been so... moved by it or or care about it but but whatever it's just my my law in life.
14:38
Speaker 1
It's a superpower to be affected deeply by.
14:43
Speaker 2
Yeah and to be able to sometimes be a part of it and have that translate into the work is not it's really amazing.
14:48
Speaker 1
Yeah yeah about when did you realize it wasn't like a character defect.
14:53
Speaker 2
Oh, just like recently with a therapist.
15:00
Speaker 1
Do you stand for therapy, by the way? Yes. Yeah. Oh, hell.
15:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. Hell yes.
15:06
Speaker 1
I'm going to try that myself. That's amazing. I mean, you would think just given the success, the sheer amount of success that you've had, that that might have occurred sooner, you know?
15:19
Speaker 2
Oh, understanding that?
15:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. That was a gift.
15:22
Speaker 2
Well, you want, yeah, no, I think you want to be, you know, there's this masculinity and there's this, uh, you know, you want to be strong and, but you, you know, but those things can also, you know, totally coexist. And, but it's just, it's just something that has come with time for me.
15:40
Speaker 1
Yeah.
15:40
Speaker 2
Yeah.
15:41
Speaker 1
I feel like maybe on Miss America, there might be some themes you're playing with there too, of, of masculinity, especially in more rural America where, You know, I would say there's probably even more opportunity to dabble in what feels more stereotypically masculine, you know, whether it's riding pickup trucks or hunting or, you know.
16:03
Speaker 2
Yeah. And there's not, and I don't, because, you know, the big, the big phrase is toxic masculinity. And I always feel like I want to say this and I'm going to say it. They're talking about toxic masculinity is different than masculinity. You know, sometimes they don't differentiate it. Being masculine is fine, but being dangerous or being hurtful and, you know, and attributing it to you being a man is not fine.
16:32
Speaker 1
Right.
16:33
Speaker 2
So it's like, anyway, so that's my two cents. Obviously that makes sense, but sometimes people don't seem like they can differentiate those two things.
16:41
Speaker 1
Well, I think certain ways of thinking become fashionable and certain phrases become shortcuts to like a, A thing, and it's like, I definitely, I concede your point. I think it's super, I think it's really true. I think that sort of verbiage, toxic masculinity has somehow shortcutted to just being masculinity at large. And it's like, how is that? It's funny. It's not, it's certainly not true. And you're raising sons. So, you know, I'm sure that's also something you have to think deeply about. Yeah.
17:10
Speaker 2
You know. Three boys.
17:13
Speaker 1
Was that present in your upbringing? Like, was that a common... Like were those conversations you commonly had at home?
17:23
Speaker 2
No, not, not so much. My dad, my dad is a very, he's born in the forties and he, you know, was, he dropped out of high school in the ninth grade and sort of had a, a really different upbringing than I would have had. Um, he grew up, you know, just went to work right away and, um, had pretty, pretty rough upbringing. And, um, his dad was tough. And so it was, um, there was a weird, a strange tug of war because he also, he converted to, to my church when we, when he, when I was about six. And so there was.
18:04
Speaker 1
Cause your mom, cause your mother.
18:06
Speaker 2
No, he did. He was hit, you know, she had been LDS the entire time, which was kind of interesting. So it was, I think she had been just kind of waiting and, and it was so after, you know, however many years of marriage that was 20, whatever years of marriage he converted, um, And it was a heartfelt conversion. And he just changed. And it was an interesting thing to be a part of. So there was that side of him where I grew up with this dad and it was like the pork chop. He looked like some of these... I'd say he embodied some of these guys that I keep referencing for this country record. He looked like those guys. He looked like he could be playing with Merle Haggard or something like that. Yeah, and so... And it was like drinking and bar fights and pool halls and gambling and all that kind of stuff. You would hear these kind of stories about my dad racing cars and stuff. I don't recognize it because when I was six, he became this other thing.
19:06
Speaker 1
Wow. So, like, and his demeanor changed even, you would say? Yeah. Yeah.
19:10
Speaker 2
So, he was always, I think, a good man, but he became a better man.
19:13
Speaker 1
Okay.
19:13
Speaker 2
That's how I look at it. Okay.
19:14
Speaker 1
Some of the edges.
19:16
Speaker 2
And maybe, yeah. And so, all my siblings are older. I'm the baby by quite a big margin. So, they sort of had this different guy. And it wasn't like, he wasn't terrible, but it was a really different thing where he, I think he was more gentle and. And just, it really changed the trajectory of my life and our house.
19:34
Speaker 1
Do you think it was down to his conversion? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:38
Speaker 2
His finding religion and God and all that?
19:39
Speaker 1
You think so?
19:39
Speaker 2
Yeah.
19:41
Speaker 1
Wow, that's pretty wild. Yeah. You don't think it was age, just sort of like it was time to.
19:47
Speaker 2
Maybe, it could be, yeah, Cause he was about, he was about, he was in his early forties when it happened. Yeah.
19:52
Speaker 1
Yeah. Wow. That's wild.
19:54
Speaker 2
It was crazy. I mean, it wasn't like he was like going to prison, but you know, but it was like, it went from that. It went to, you know, he would bring home a homeless. One day I came home from school and there was a homeless family in my house.
20:07
Speaker 1
Wow.
20:08
Speaker 2
He brought them and they lived in our house. Wow. Which is a wild thing to do.
20:12
Speaker 1
Wow.
20:13
Speaker 2
For a while. Things like that. And all of a sudden, he's involved in Boy Scouts. But he's great. He's a great guy.
20:22
Speaker 1
It's a real benefit to you that that happened. At that point, were you also going to church?
20:29
Speaker 2
Yeah, we went. And then we went. fairly consistently. And then we started going even more when, when, when he was on board.
20:36
Speaker 1
Cause now he's now there's excitement. Yeah. That's pretty amazing. This moment is brought to you by Sierra Nevada's hazy little thing. Your go-to beer for good times. The best pool days aren't rushed. The only real decision all afternoon is who controls the playlist. Get that part right. And everything just falls into place. Just the sun, the water, and a hazy little thing in your hand. That's the mission for part two of this year Nevada Sounds of Summer series. We're building a playlist that makes having no agenda feel like the best plan you've had all week. Here's what I'll have on my rotation during my next pool day. And be warned, my criteria is for the most part that I want to feel like I'm in the opening scene from Goldfinger, where James Brown's relaxing at that Miami Beach hotel where he first encounters Goldfinger and Oddjob. That's the vibe I'm going for. And so the first couple I'm going to pick are along those lines. First of all, Nem Saudade by Eliana Pittman, a wonderful entry from Brazilian popular music in the early 1970s. Has that wonderful mid-range sound, which, you know, when you're bobbing, you're heading out of the pool, it's really all you're going for anyway, is that nice little mid-range sound. Lush orchestration, great songwriting, beautiful feel. And then along those same lines, keeping in mind that mid-range sound and this amazing bubbly guitar that comes up, in La Ponce by Marino Marini. This is a Neapolitan song with a jazzy twist. And then similar along those lines, they're a new group, but they make music that feels like it could have come out of the 50s, 60s, and 70s because they're song-centric, but also there's amazing orchestration. Pearl and the Oysters song, Together Alone. These guys, they write concise, catchy songs, but they arrange them in these incredible ways and They're one of my favorite groups. I'm going to go see them in Los Angeles actually later this month. And then last but not least, a perennial favorite of mine. Well, it's usually the Pixies, but this is a song from a Frank Black solo album called Oddballs, which was only sold at shows for the longest time. Track five is a song called At the End of the World. And in the credits, he says he's trying to sound like David Bowie. But to me, it sounds like some sort of weird 80s ska song. But I absolutely love it. And it makes me feel like I want to frolic by the pool all day long. You know, a good pool day playlist doesn't rush anything. It just keeps the pace with the afternoon so you can feel good about kicking your feet up until it's time to grab another cold one. If you've ever reached for a cheers when your favorite song comes on, you're ready to embrace the haze with Hazy Little Thing from Sierra, Nevada. Hazy, citrusy, smooth, juicy, but not sweet, hoppy, but not bitter. America's best-selling hazy IPA for a reason. Hazy Little Thing. Enjoy responsibly. My best friend from middle school is LDS, and so he has a lot of family in Utah that's also just become as good as family as well to me so i've spent a lot of time out there so one of the things that really struck me on on the record is uh i think it's miss america as well um because every time i'd go there and we'd be driving past a certain place to be like oh yeah footloose was filmed here oh yeah it's like really okay and you know it became like the 20th time like you know footloose was filmed here it's like oh okay you know it's like this is like a really big thing here you know listening to your record and I think it was on Miss America. It's like, you know, it's a scene where Chris Penn and Kevin Bacon filmed. And I was like, oh, yes. I'm not the only one that's been hearing this forever.
24:11
Speaker 2
It was a big deal. We moved there when I was eight to this town called Payson. So it was filmed. You probably are driving by Lehigh.
24:17
Speaker 1
There we go. And it's like a school.
24:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. And so Payson and Lehigh are the two towns where Footloose was filmed. And we moved to Payson. So I lived on Utah Avenue in Payson, Utah. At the end of Utah Avenue on this corner, there was a car wash. And there's this just like idyllic scene in that movie. I don't know. Fire it up if you can. Fire it up because it's so beautiful. But the trees lining the streets and they're washing this bug. And anyway, it was, yeah, but that was like, that was the thing when we moved there. Like Footloose was filmed. I told Kevin Bacon once that I lived on that street. Zero Fs given.
24:55
Speaker 1
No. Come on, really? Zero. I don't know.
24:58
Speaker 2
What was his response? I was like, what am I going to do? I saw you. I lived on the street where you filmed the scene with Chris Penn. And it was just, he didn't care.
25:06
Speaker 1
Did he know who you were?
25:07
Speaker 2
I think he did, yeah.
25:08
Speaker 1
He's like a music guy. I feel like he.
25:09
Speaker 2
Would really appreciate it.
25:11
Speaker 1
I know.
25:11
Speaker 2
We were doing a John Lennon tribute. And everybody was singing a song. I think he was hosting it. Yeah. Anyway, I'm outing Kevin on that. He didn't care.
25:25
Speaker 1
I guess it's the things that become really meaningful to us. And it's like for him, he was there for two weeks in 1984 or whenever that came out, you know? So I guess it's no shade on him. How long had that thought as a, I mean, so you've known that for a long time and it's just working its way into a song.
25:46
Speaker 2
Well, I wanted it to show there's a beauty in it. She's so young and naive. she's writing this letter to this man that beats her, like, you know, that like should go to jail.
25:59
Speaker 1
Yeah.
25:59
Speaker 2
And she can't help, but tell him that, that they filmed footloose here. So there's like this other layer to it that, and that, and that would have been how it was. That was the way it felt when we moved there.
26:09
Speaker 1
Yeah.
26:09
Speaker 2
Cause she was just, she would have just been, you know, 22 or something like that when she left him.
26:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. It feels like the kind of song that, um, I feel like some of the reason you make, make it a country album didn't, necessarily surprise me is you've always stood out as a really from the from the very beginning like a really a really I don't know the right phrase but just a really good songwriter you know like undergirding everything like undergirding Hot Fuss with all the great production and great you know the band is great and your performance is amazing but what you realized what set that apart from Everything else from... Or not everything else, but much else from that era was just how tight and amazing the songwriting was.
26:59
Speaker 2
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I think storytelling was always there, too. That was what maybe... That little tilt that made us different than Kings of Leon or whatever... Strokes or whatever it was.
27:11
Speaker 1
Yeah.
27:12
Speaker 2
You might not... I was very interested in that. It just made sense to me to tell stories.
27:17
Speaker 1
Yeah.
27:17
Speaker 2
And I think that's put us... in our own little lane off.
27:21
Speaker 1
To the side yeah at a time when there were clearly a lot of groups that were um like disciples of like joy division right or or or you know um depeche mode or any of the sort of like uk post-punk kind of yeah but then but then it got really like in that time too when you guys came out that music got really like dancey and really upbeat but then i think that's the fact that that music was so upbeat and so big and so broad, but was sort of streamlined by this beautiful songwriting underneath it. He really did give it legs beyond, you know, yeah, probably what otherwise it would have had if we didn't have that songwriting under it, you know?
28:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. There was, there was always a, like a, some kind of a, even a moral compass in there somewhere that, that, that, that's just a part of, I think, you know, my upbringing and things like that, that I couldn't help but inject into there. And, Luckily, it's, I think it's, like you said, I think it's given it something of its own. Yeah.
28:21
Speaker 1
Did it feel ever, like you said, on that first album, and then you, well, you have the Murder Ballad.
28:29
Speaker 2
Yeah. Jenny was a friend of mine.
28:30
Speaker 1
Jenny was a friend of mine. You have the Murder Ballad trilogy.
28:32
Speaker 2
Yeah.
28:33
Speaker 1
You know, and then also on Country, you have Murder Ballads, you know? Yeah. So, but did it ever feel like you were riding a line between morality and maybe like a darker sort of....
28:45
Speaker 2
That specifically, Jenny was a friend of mine, just for me, I know exactly where it comes from. And it's just Morrissey. He has this line, I love the romance of crime. And he's singing about the craze in England and things like that. And he would have little seeds like that. And I was just a big Morrissey fan. And you knew about Nick Cave's... stuff like that. It's kind of those two things came together on, on songs like Jenny was a friend of mine.
29:15
Speaker 1
How much of, how much of that and country music were you, were you drawn to?
29:19
Speaker 2
The murder stuff?
29:20
Speaker 1
The murder stuff. The stuff that was kind of moral storytelling, but through.
29:27
Speaker 2
Yeah, no, yeah, not so, not so much. It was, like I said, with, it was something that it was like a flash in my life that where I, where, where I was, cause when I was 13, I just, I chose what I was going to, be. Like my, I was going to be this synth pop and Brit pop and new wave, like that is my alley. And so I didn't abandon country music, but I had, but I am realizing now that I had an education from it, from listening to it. I was surrounded by it in Utah and then by my father and the music that he gave. So it wasn't– not a lot of the dark– not so much of the dark stuff.
30:11
Speaker 1
Did you ever sing like this?
30:13
Speaker 2
No. I don't– I'm only singing– I'm leaning into it a little bit, but it feels like pretty natural to sing like some of these songs.
30:19
Speaker 1
No, I'm not– not even in the sense that you're leaning into the country, but just it's more– it's almost more straight than like less theatrical. Yeah.
30:27
Speaker 2
I think the words are really important in, in the, in the tradition of country music. And so that was one of the things we went for with the mixes and everything, Sean, because Sean is, this isn't necessarily his, um, you know, his genre either. And so, but, uh, you know, sometimes you can, things can be ambiguous and, but when you're telling these stories, you really want it to be clear. And so I think maybe that's what you're picking up on. Yeah. Yeah.
30:53
Speaker 1
Um, Was it, this leads me to, was Paradise, was it Paradise the last song that you wrote?
31:01
Speaker 2
Paradise, yeah.
31:01
Speaker 1
Or that you recorded? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that wasn't even initially, that wasn't initially going to make the album, right?
31:08
Speaker 2
It wasn't written, I wrote it right, I had a gap to go home before we were going to do another session. And I was like, I got, I just loved, I watched them. It goes back to One of Us. We went and played One of Us. We had done a couple of tracks together. And Bobby, the piano player, he's an amazing piano player, mainstay in Nashville. He played with Elvis and everybody. And I still remember he played him the demo of One of Us. And he just, he had this pep in his step walking back to the piano. And he goes, this is country. And it just meant, oh, I know, like, this is what I do. Like, I know what to do here. And I wanted to write another song that made Bobby... that made Bobby do that or something like that. It was just like, oh, okay, this is what, you know, this is what, they all seem to just love that more, that vibe a little bit more. And I wanted to get one more lick in. So I wrote Paradise.
32:04
Speaker 1
To satisfy that sort of.
32:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, and just because I knew they would be so great. It was like, they don't, there's not a question of what to, you know, there's a blueprint for this kind of a thing.
32:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. Were there any songs you tried that didn't, you feel, that in your mind didn't fit.
32:20
Speaker 2
No, it all worked. The strangest one is Plans, which was sort of the face of the record, the lead single, was a totally, was an up-tempo, completely the exact same song, but a different genre. And they're just so great at recording that we ran out of, you know, the clock's ticking, and I'm paying for the studio. And there's like, you got anything else kind of a thing. And I had this song, Plans, but it was sort of like, you know, Ark of a Diver, Steve Winwood? It's a weird reference, maybe. I think it's like 79 or 80 or something like that. Before it's big, like, it's before the big stuff, before Back in the High Life and stuff like that, but it's really cool. And it was in that vein, anyway. And so it's a little bit more up-tempo, and I sang the verses up high, and then we just tried it country, exactly the same song. And it just settled right into that genre, and that was an amazing thing to witness.
33:17
Speaker 1
Well, that makes me wonder, like, are there... country songs and non-country songs or can any song like is there a difference could you know.
33:26
Speaker 2
Yeah i don't know i think you could make it yeah you know you could manipulate anything i guess.
33:30
Speaker 1
Well let me ask more directly like could could mr brightside be a country.
33:34
Speaker 2
Song my buddy sent me a somebody made a version you know it's not the same melodies and everything but somebody has made a some ai version of it where it's like a dark a dark country song i don't know.
33:47
Speaker 1
Did it work Besides that it was AF.
33:49
Speaker 2
Embarrassing. Yes, it was. There's something about the lyrics. I think you could make it anything.
33:56
Speaker 1
That's interesting. Because it feels like the songwriting, similar to the vocal delivery, the songwriting on this is so plain, but in a beautiful way. There's some really just talking about Elvis, like that line, jet black Elvis. Oh yeah.
34:17
Speaker 2
The comeback, you know, jet black 68 comeback.
34:21
Speaker 1
Black 68 comeback leather. Like that's just a, it's, it's a, just a description.
34:26
Speaker 2
Yeah.
34:26
Speaker 1
It's like a wonderful description. It makes you feel something.
34:30
Speaker 2
Yeah.
34:30
Speaker 1
You know, and it feels like there's, but there's no sleight of hand in it necessarily.
34:34
Speaker 2
I think that came from, that's, that kind of stuff comes from petty. I think I attribute that to a lot to him. Just like, this is my language. How can I convey what I need to say in a way that anyone can get it? And he was the king, the king of that. Yeah.
34:51
Speaker 1
When did you get into Petty?
34:54
Speaker 2
He came later. I was always aware of him. But it wasn't until I just had this strange renaissance. I had this in my mid-20s. Everybody has their thing when they're 13. And I had my thing when I was 13. And then I had this thing. I got to do it again in my 20s. And it was amazing. I fell in love with a whole new genre of music. It started with Bruce Springsteen. And then that led to Petty and Tom Waits and Mellencamp and all of those kind of people. Which I think is also a gateway to this record.
35:26
Speaker 1
Yeah, it seems like it. What was your Bruce awakening?
35:32
Speaker 2
Man, I mean, I've talked about it a little bit before. I can still see it. I was on Boulder Highway. boulder highway and horizon is where i'm from you know in henderson it's old henderson if anybody out there is watching because henderson has gotten so big now but so like the og henderson and i was listening to classic rock station it was like 97.1 and they played thunder road and it's like yeah i know about born to run i know about born in the usa you how could you not you know it um if you've been alive but and i knew who it was uh And I was just, we had, we had, we were, we were on a break from, from, we had finished touring the first record, Hot Fuss. So I'm 25 or whatever, 24. And it was sunny and hot, you know, and it just clicked, you know, like I understood it's that thing again. He's speaking my language. Like I, it's nothing against Morrissey or anybody, but that they're not speaking my language. Yes, it's English. but I don't, but it isn't mine. And it was like this, something happened and I understood like if I'm going to do what I'm trying to do and be a creative person and represent who I am and where I'm from, like it's got to be, this is more me than what I've been trying to, you know, than this facade.
36:52
Speaker 1
Interesting. It wasn't just that it was you at 13 and it wasn't you at 24, 25. You just didn't think that they're sort of, that lexic, that, that, that voir wasn't actually where you were, raised it's like more of a yeah.
37:04
Speaker 2
It was it was like an epiphany yeah and and um it was also everything had happened so fast up to that point you know and then there's gonna be people that see me say this and say they wish you know that i would have just kept going with the other thing you know um and it's you know it's been a little bit of a of a i don't know if it's a dilemma but it's been kind of interesting to see you because you because then since that point you see these things combined in the killers and sometimes when they when they meet is what is really a magical thing, you know, cause who would have thought that someone would be, would be trying to, to reconcile or try to make these things, these influences work.
37:43
Speaker 1
Do you still have that other side of you? You think the, the, the.
37:46
Speaker 2
Yeah, I do. I hear it. Oh, I see it in my sons. Cause I have, I have one son the other day that was, you know, like listening to black celebration from Depeche mode or music for the masses or something like that. It's like, there's a song on, uh, uh, there's a song called, but not tonight. The last song, on, I think on black celebration, man, like crazy to, to hear it and remember being his age and what that felt like. And I could, I could feel it, you know, but I don't think, Oh, I want to do that at all.
38:16
Speaker 1
It didn't make you want to go down that road again. That's fascinating.
38:21
Speaker 2
I have another son who's into right now. The other one is Oasis. Like everything's Oasis and we're playing pool and he's just whistling, whistling little by little. Yeah. So he loves it. And so I got that again a little bit. Because I did have a real big love affair with them when I was 18, 19. And that was really nice. And the thing that I go back to with them is just the songwriting. Because a lot of people, a lot of stuff, a lot was talked about. And when our first record, it was like Duran Duran, Depeche Mode, and whatever they were talking about. And New Order and stuff like that. But the songwriting was, I was learning from Oasis. It was like, you look at, somebody told me, Mr. Brightside, they have these big prolonged pre-choruses. And that is just, that's Noel Gallagher's book. Like that's straight from him. Like those other bands didn't do that kind of stuff as much. But it sets you up for these big choruses. And that's why those Oasis songs are so big.
39:23
Speaker 1
That's fascinating. So that's the magic of at least early Killers is like that Brit pop song. school with the dressed up as kind of these like New Order-y.
39:37
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
39:40
Speaker 1
I'd never put that together as being sort of the confluence of those two things.
39:45
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's amazing how it all just meshes.
39:52
Speaker 1
So you had the Bruce Springsteen epiphany. Yeah. And that led you down, you know, I imagine like a.
39:59
Speaker 2
Well, it's like, I wear, sometimes I wear, you know, we're from Las Vegas and that gives us permission to, you know, wear flashy things on stage. You know, I do, I get away with things that other bands maybe not, maybe not, maybe they couldn't. But there's this part of me that's, you know, that's my dad's side or that's the person that I, the way I dress when I'm not on stage. And it was like, those kind of things are starting to come into play. You're becoming a man, you're figuring out who you are. And so, yeah, that was, it was like, okay, this is more, this is reality. It's more authentic to me.
40:30
Speaker 1
Since then, have you had another musical discovery?
40:36
Speaker 2
No, I think it's getting more into like the nuances of these. So like that, like I would, like I go back to John Prine or something like that, where that's, he's this sort of, he's in the periphery. of tom petty in a way you know what i mean and it's like you you get led there yeah and then it's like these are these are you know um you know the songwriter songwriters and people like that that start to come into play yeah and so that that's the those are the nice surprises that that have come into my life along the.
41:04
Speaker 1
Way was was neil ever uh neil young ever.
41:07
Speaker 2
Uh yeah he's he's he's in there okay i feel like i hear a little neil on this yeah this way i could hear some of that you know.
41:13
Speaker 1
Every once in a while um angel felt a little oh yeah yeah yeah there's a yeah there's a priny though in the lyrics.
41:21
Speaker 2
Yeah yeah um i could see that yeah for sure in the especially the some of the heavier moments yeah.
41:28
Speaker 1
Yeah tell me about tell me about that angel into um the next track is the red uh red red ground red ground i don't know if it's incidental or on purpose but having the merit that slight mariachi moment at the end of angel and then the big moment at the top of the red yeah i mean it's fun that's it's fun yeah that's great.
41:48
Speaker 2
Yeah i know it's um we got everything was recorded in nashville but the mariachi was la you can't you just can't can't fake it has to be in la and so that's the only that's the only one that wasn't done the only thing that wasn't done in nashville.
42:05
Speaker 1
Did you know there was going to be a mariachi there?
42:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, well, it was going to be, it's a story about a Hispanic young man. Yeah. And it's a true story. It's a true story. And I've just, I've conceived, I've changed his name. And so it just felt appropriate to have the mariachi at the end.
42:24
Speaker 1
Something you read or it's a person, you know, this person I know. Wow. Yeah. I was going to ask, cause it is so specific, you know, like in a way.
42:31
Speaker 2
Yeah.
42:33
Speaker 1
Um, but like, like, like beautiful. I mean, I have nothing in common with that person.
42:38
Speaker 2
Right.
42:39
Speaker 1
Really. It's so that's that specific that I can tell I have nothing really in common. I'm not, I don't play baseball. There's no one, no one was ever scouting me for anything, you know? And, um, but, uh, it's, it's a really moving, it's really moving, you know?
42:52
Speaker 2
Oh yeah. It's a, the chorus, I love what the chorus does. Um, and how each, you know, it, it represents each verse, but each verse is so different. And every, so every time you've got this new development and the, but the chorus stays this permanent to it. And I love that.
43:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. What about the red ground?
43:13
Speaker 2
That's a, Red Ground, I was trying to write like a Lee Hazelwood song. It ended up not like Lee Hazelwood at all. But yeah, it was the fastest written song. It's one of those moments that you hear about that just falls from heaven or falls into your lap. We open with it most nights. We've only done a few shows, but we open with it. And it's just such a fun way to start the show. and was, was going to be reserved for the other record. Cause there's two records that we cut. Um, so it's really an outlier in that sense, because it's more of a romantic song where the rest are more narrative songs. Um, but, but it just, um, it just felt good. It just felt good after Angel.
43:59
Speaker 1
Yeah. Wait, wait. Yeah. So what, so the second, you do have a second album and it's done.
44:05
Speaker 2
It's, it just needs, uh, mixed more, more mixing. Okay.
44:09
Speaker 1
And, uh, is it in a similar vein?
44:13
Speaker 2
Is it, Same band. It's just thematically different. It's more romance-leaning. But not like sappy romance. It's more like, what's it going to take for this to last? What does it take for people to make it and stay together kind of a thing? It's like a hard-earned thing and not so much a sappy love album.
44:38
Speaker 1
It's a grown-up take on.
44:40
Speaker 2
Yeah.
44:40
Speaker 1
I mean, you've been in a long-term... that what like in your view as some you know i'm also.
44:46
Speaker 2
Married trying to make it what is it yeah in your view well i i always go back to my parents because i i hate from my perspective i always whenever it's difficult to give advice but it's like i don't i i'm so lucky i'm so successful in my life with money and things like that i don't i don't have i'm not fighting with my wife over bills yeah so whenever i see like a super or a movie star or something like that like giving, you know, marriage advice or something, I always like recoil a little bit. So I can just tell you from my parents, who were not super famous people or rich at all, they were, you know, poor people. It was just, you know, it was the love and letting little things go and foundation, you know, they both had this shared faith and this shared belief in what the job was and they kept the family close and they prioritized the family. My dad wasn't like, it was, you know, very much around the family as I grew up. That's a big part. You know that from your LDS experience. And that's also just part of my upbringing.
45:55
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's huge. Like there's a big, I mean, the fact that, I mean, there's these big families and everyone knows, I would forget everybody.
46:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, when I was four, My sister started having babies. So by the time I was probably 13, there were 17 or 18 nieces and nephews. And so it was just like, it was kind of a madhouse.
46:17
Speaker 1
That's wild, man. Yeah. Does it feel strange to be in such a different position than your parents were at your age? Does it feel a bit disorienting?
46:28
Speaker 2
Yeah, it can be a little bit. There wasn't really a blueprint for me. And you're just kind of trying to, figure out how, you know, how, how it all plays out. There's just not a, yeah, I don't know. It's a, it's a kind of a tough one. Yeah.
46:46
Speaker 1
Yeah.
46:46
Speaker 2
Cause there's no, it's a miracle what's happened to me. You know, I've been saying it on stage, you know, it's part, it's part of the end of the show. It's a miracle. Um, I, my family wasn't artistic. They weren't, you know, there were nobody, I always say that was something that other people did. Um, When I was five, my great-grandma moved in with us, and she lived with us for a year until she passed away when she was 93. And she had a piano, and that got dropped off. When they dropped her off at our house, they dropped off her piano, and that's it. I would have never played an instrument.
47:27
Speaker 1
Wow.
47:28
Speaker 2
It wouldn't have even.
47:29
Speaker 1
Been a question. How quickly were you drawn to the piano once it was.
47:37
Speaker 2
I started getting piano lessons when I was six. And it's off and on until I was 12. But that was enough for me to do what I'm able to do now. I know the shapes of chords. And that was kind of all I needed.
47:55
Speaker 1
Do you play guitar as well? No. No. So you write primarily on piano?
48:01
Speaker 2
Yeah.
48:02
Speaker 1
And do you play on your records often?
48:07
Speaker 2
Synths?
48:08
Speaker 1
These days?
48:08
Speaker 2
Oh, like, yeah. On this, on Thrasher, no. But there might be a couple of melodies that I had pre, you know, that were already sort of set in stone before we went there that we would have showed the guys.
48:21
Speaker 1
Yeah.
48:22
Speaker 2
Like the head on Paradise. I call it the head. I don't even know what, you know, the head on Paradise?
48:28
Speaker 1
Yes. You flexing your music target.
48:30
Speaker 2
Well, you know, the only reason I know that, well, no, Vinucci went to music college, whatever he did. And so I only learned that from him. So I know the head on Paradise. I wrote that at home, and then we just showed it to Lauer.
48:44
Speaker 1
Yeah, so how did you have demos of these? How did you show this? In what form did you bring the songs to Nashville to show the band?
48:54
Speaker 2
Some of them were pretty well demoed. Okay.
48:57
Speaker 1
Yeah.
48:58
Speaker 2
They weren't, they weren't, they didn't sound necessarily, definitely not as good as they sound now, but they were, you know, they were, the structure was there and the song was there.
49:08
Speaker 1
It's cool because sometimes I hear demos for songs and I'm like, man, the demo sounds better because it has a sparseness and just has a stark, it just it feels like but this album does not sound at all overproduced i mean so it's i i um i'm i'm grateful that there wasn't like it feels like.
49:28
Speaker 2
Every time you know every time we make a record i think i'm gonna go i'm gonna go sing it 10 times after and we're gonna make a comp and then i went and did that for this record and every time we went back to me singing live and used the live stuff. It's just, there was a spontaneity and just a, there was a real spirit just playing with the guys.
49:49
Speaker 1
Yeah. How many songs are on the next thing?
49:54
Speaker 2
10, 10 or 11.
49:55
Speaker 1
10 or 11?
49:55
Speaker 2
Yeah.
49:56
Speaker 1
Okay. So you had about 20 some songs?
49:59
Speaker 2
I think we did 23. There might be a couple that just may never surface.
50:03
Speaker 1
Never, never surface. And are these albums of a piece? When is the second album?
50:08
Speaker 2
Oh, I think the next one will come out next, uh, in 2027. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Probably in the summer, around the summertime. Yeah.
50:17
Speaker 1
What, um, you know, I was, I'm going to ask about the title where it came from. I think that might also be why I was so in the Neil, Neil Young lines. Yeah.
50:26
Speaker 2
He has a song called Thrasher.
50:27
Speaker 1
Yeah. From Russ Never Sleeps. That's, you know, phenomenal. Yeah.
50:30
Speaker 2
No, it goes back to the, the, the more about the masculinity question, actually.
50:33
Speaker 1
Okay. Yeah.
50:35
Speaker 2
Um, I was, when we first moved to, To Payson, where Footloose was filmed.
50:41
Speaker 1
Forever will be known as.
50:44
Speaker 2
Jewel was born there also.
50:46
Speaker 1
Jewel? Jewel? Yeah. I thought she was from Alaska.
50:48
Speaker 2
She was born in Payson.
50:50
Speaker 1
Wow. Okay.
50:51
Speaker 2
Anyway. I'll tell another one. I'm just going to say it. I'm going to tell another one. I met her once. I told her.
50:57
Speaker 1
Did you tell her?
50:58
Speaker 2
I told her I grew up in Payson. I lived in Payson. Did not care. She said, thanks for sharing.
51:03
Speaker 1
What?
51:06
Speaker 2
I was like, what a weird answer. See, you guys are getting my guard down on the couch.
51:11
Speaker 1
I'm sorry.
51:12
Speaker 2
I shouldn't be sitting down. But what a weird answer, Jewel. All right. Sorry. I would never answer. I don't know. Show some. I don't know. It's kind of interesting.
51:24
Speaker 1
I mean, how many people in your line of work have any connection to bass in Utah? Maybe Salt Lake. You know, you could see. Yeah.
51:36
Speaker 2
It is, yeah. I'm in the right.
51:38
Speaker 1
You are. I'm telling you firmly. How do you interact with fans?
51:45
Speaker 2
I try to do my best. I had some unsavory experiences. I had some great experiences with people I idolized. I also had some weird ones.
51:55
Speaker 1
What were the good ones?
51:57
Speaker 2
Good ones. I always go back to this. Danny Elfman. who I know is a little bit on the fringe right now. Older, yeah. But he was having a birthday. I was a busboy at Spago.
52:12
Speaker 1
Was there Spago in Vegas?
52:13
Speaker 2
Yeah, in Caesars Palace. And I was 18. And I loved Oingo Boingo. Man. It was sort of like the closest thing I got to punk. You know what I mean? They had a real punk ethos, I think, in that band.
52:27
Speaker 1
But then had the keyboards to sort of mitigate that. Yeah, and brass.
52:30
Speaker 2
And it was so good. They have a song called Private Life that's just like... You could wake me up at three in the morning out of dead sleep and I could sing the lyrics of Private Life. Anyway.
52:42
Speaker 1
Love it.
52:44
Speaker 2
He's having dinner with his wife and his friends. And my... We're told not to, obviously not to harass anyone, but especially, you know, celebrities and famous people and all that, that come into the restaurant. He's not in my section. I'm out front, like, you know, where the Gucci and, you know, whatever is out here. And I'm out here and he's back in the dining room, but I know he's back there. And so I break protocol. I can't help it. And I go up to the table and I'm like, you just say the thing. I'm a big fan or whatever. I don't know what you're hoping for. But he was fine. I think he shook my hand. So as soon as I walk out, I see we had this manager named Trinny. And it's a strange name, Trinny. I guess that's why I remember it.
53:32
Speaker 1
Like Trinny Lopez.
53:33
Speaker 2
Trinny.
53:33
Speaker 1
That's the only other Trinny I can think of.
53:35
Speaker 2
And Trinny is pissed that I just did what I did. He saw what I did. But the interesting thing about Trinny, this is crazy. He met his wife at an Oingo Boingo concert.
53:48
Speaker 1
Wait, what? After the... Like, before.
53:50
Speaker 2
This is true.
53:50
Speaker 1
Before. No, before.
53:52
Speaker 2
So he gets it. Like, if anybody gets it, Trini gets it.
53:55
Speaker 1
Yeah.
53:56
Speaker 2
Sorry. In all of Las Vegas, like, how many people even... You know what I mean?
54:00
Speaker 1
Yeah.
54:01
Speaker 2
Trini gets it.
54:02
Speaker 1
Trini got it, but he still got.
54:03
Speaker 2
He didn't fire me, but I got in trouble. And Elfman... I always call him the Elfman, which is a thing from my brother. But anyways, the Elfman sees this happen. He kind of knows I'm in trouble. It's not... It wasn't common, but I worked the night shift. Then I worked the day shift. So the next morning, I'm opening. And I'm, you know, like, whatever. I'm, like, cleaning spots off of glasses and rolling up silverware and all that. And I see Danny Elfman walking. He's just walking in the mall, which I'm just kind of excited. Again, there he is. And he walks up. And walks straight to the hostess desk and leaves a piece of paper and then just walks off. And I run over to the hostess desk like, what is he saying? What is he doing? And it was a note to me. And just like so, you know, went out of his way to write me a note and bring it back the next day.
54:54
Speaker 1
Wow.
54:54
Speaker 2
And it's like, that's a great experience.
54:57
Speaker 1
That is phenomenal. Yeah.
54:58
Speaker 2
That was really nice.
54:59
Speaker 1
Have you had a chance to?
54:59
Speaker 2
Yeah, I've talked to him about it. Later on, we were able to work with Tim Burton, which has been a really amazing thing. And so they have that great history together. Anyway, yeah.
55:15
Speaker 1
That was a good one. Give us another bad one. Give us another bad one.
55:19
Speaker 2
The bad is... I mean, the same restaurant is a Morrissey. Morrissey Interaction wasn't the greatest. But that's just what you expect.
55:28
Speaker 1
Morrissey has Spago?
55:29
Speaker 2
That's to be expected.
55:30
Speaker 1
But Morrissey has Spago.
55:32
Speaker 2
Spago, yeah, yeah, yeah.
55:33
Speaker 1
That's amazing.
55:34
Speaker 2
I think it was... And if I'm right, because you know he can't– he's in the news now for canceling gigs, but he's been canceling gigs forever. So it's just par for the course. So I think I saw him– I was meant to see him four times growing up, and he canceled two of them, which is like that's about right.
55:53
Speaker 1
Half and half.
55:55
Speaker 2
And my kids now want to see him, and we were going to go see him, and he's canceled both times that we were supposed to go see him.
56:02
Speaker 1
That's not the bad part, though, right?
56:03
Speaker 2
No, no, it was just like I was, but this, I tell you, I'm partly to blame for it because I was a little bit over the top. Because I was like, he has an effect on people, you know.
56:14
Speaker 1
It's that, it's the.
56:14
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's just, and so I was like a disciple, man. And he came to eat. And I think he was coming to eat the day after he canceled the gig that I was supposed to go to. I'm pretty sure it was the same, the same trip. Anyway, so he didn't look too sick to sing. He was going out and he was getting a mushroom pizza. And it's fine. And he just wasn't having it. He's used to that. He's used to it. To people just falling over themselves.
56:47
Speaker 1
Was it just complete ignoring?
56:49
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was nothing.
56:50
Speaker 1
Nothing. Yeah. How excited would you be for a Smiths reunion, a proper Smiths?
56:55
Speaker 2
Now it's just different. Now it's just... Well, it's impossible now, too.
56:59
Speaker 1
I heard they got close, man.
57:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, they say that. And they say that Johnny Marr was the one that turned it down. And it's like out of righteous indignation. And it's like, good on him. Yeah, that's true. That's a bold move.
57:13
Speaker 1
That's true. I love Johnny Marr.
57:16
Speaker 2
We love him, yeah. We've got to tour with him a little bit and got to know him a little bit, and he's just great.
57:20
Speaker 1
Have you played with him?
57:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, we did a whole tour playing with him across North America.
57:26
Speaker 1
Have you done a studio session with him?
57:28
Speaker 2
No, but we did This Charming Man. What's crazy, we did This Charming Man with him at Glastonbury. What's amazing about that is we'd never... met before the before backstage yeah and we just ran through the song backstage and then went out and played to 100 000 people and did and did it and it was like so great such a fun night such a fun moment um and then he ended up coming around with us and um and we would do fun we would do songs that he hasn't played in you know 40 years and um and some that he had never played live that i didn't realize i'd forgotten that they broke up before they toured the last record yeah so we're doing, if you're doing a song on strange ways, here we come. He's never played that live with, with, with the singer. And so we chose stop me. If you think you've heard this one before, and I didn't realize I'm, this is the first time, you know, that he's doing it with a, with a band and a singer. And that was, that was a while to, to realize that after we did cool stuff, like what she said and some deep cuts that I love.
58:30
Speaker 1
What was he so articulate about music too? What was his read on, on, on you guys?
58:35
Speaker 2
Um, He's, you know, he was really, really positive about us. He seems to like us enough.
58:43
Speaker 1
Yeah, no, yeah.
58:44
Speaker 2
He would watch the shows. There was a special moment. Well, there's two special moments. So he would watch every night, which has no business. He doesn't need to do this. And he would watch from the side. And there's a moment at the end of Runaways where I'm just, I'm ripping this little Tom Petty thing. And he called me out on it. And it's just a little, it's just more of like a, tip of the hat to him. It's not like for stealing anything bad. And I would, and I, every time I did it after he told me, I would look over at him and he would, you know, like give me a little look. And then the other thing is there's this moment on caution. This is a song of ours is a single from imploding the mirage, which sort of went under the radar. It was during COVID and everything was just blah, blah. But this song, it's got something. Everybody go check out Caution from Imploding the Mirage. But we would play it and there's this beautiful moment. It's a synth line after the chorus. It's the head. And he told me, he said this beautiful thing to me once. And he said, when you play that, It's one of the beautiful things about live music. It's like, I like to think of it like when that's happening, you know, in the whole world, like that for those 15 seconds, it's the best, you know, it's the most beautiful thing that's happening in the world. And when you play that melody at the end, after the chorus is across, I mean, after the chorus of Caution. And it was just like, what a thing to say, you know, what a great thing to hear from Johnny Marr.
1:00:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's enough to make you look, you know.
1:00:23
Speaker 2
It is a pretty part, but I don't, you know.
1:00:25
Speaker 1
That's beautiful, man, to get that kind of an endorsement.
1:00:28
Speaker 2
Yeah, you can't help but like walk a little bit taller.
1:00:31
Speaker 1
Yeah, of course. Speaking of songs that I feel like never, and I think people like the song, I think people like the album, but the first song.
1:00:40
Speaker 2
Crossfire.
1:00:41
Speaker 1
No, the first song from your first solo album. Oh, what is it? Welcome to Fabulous Las Vegas.
1:00:47
Speaker 2
Is that the first song?
1:00:48
Speaker 1
First song. And, you know, never got, like, at the time it didn't get in that sense, obviously, either. Never got, like, single treatment. No, yeah. But it's such a, I don't know, it's just like, it's so clearly like a phenomenal song.
1:01:02
Speaker 2
Oh, thanks. Yeah, we haven't been playing that. We need to break that thing out, maybe. It's sort of like coming from a, it's like an Elvis impersonator, like, down on his luck kind of a story.
1:01:13
Speaker 1
That's what you think of it?
1:01:14
Speaker 2
Yeah.
1:01:14
Speaker 1
That's right. Do you ever embody a character when you're singing?
1:01:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, I try. I mean, I try to inhabit them. You know, if it's a narrative and it's a specific person, I try to a little bit, yeah. On the new record, there's a song called Paradise about an aging valet, Parker.
1:01:35
Speaker 1
Yes.
1:01:36
Speaker 2
And so I try to, you know, because that was my plan. What do you mean that was your plan?
1:01:43
Speaker 1
That was.
1:01:44
Speaker 2
my, that was what I wanted to do in Bay, you know, being in Vegas. And my, my cousin was your life's plan. Yeah.
1:01:51
Speaker 1
Yeah.
1:01:51
Speaker 2
My uncles and my cousins and, and you know, my dad even was a bellman at treasure Island. And, um, and right now this one stems from my cousin, Bobby. He's a, he works at the Luxor. So I'm sort of trying to step into his shoes a little bit.
1:02:06
Speaker 1
Wow. Did you, does he know this?
1:02:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. I went, I okayed it with him.
1:02:10
Speaker 1
Does he appreciate the song?
1:02:12
Speaker 2
Yeah.
1:02:12
Speaker 1
It's great. It's that song has some, really kind of poignant couplets.
1:02:18
Speaker 2
Yeah the second verse gets starts to get a little sad.
1:02:20
Speaker 1
Yeah yeah vegas when you were growing up i feel like kind of went through had a i mean maybe when you're through i don't know for the 80s the 90s for vegas felt like from the outside a bit of a a renaissance.
1:02:32
Speaker 2
Yeah uh no 80s and 90s was a big deal yeah um well in the 80s we got the It started to go family friendly. Okay.
1:02:42
Speaker 1
That was in the 80s when that started?
1:02:43
Speaker 2
80s, yeah. It started in the late 80s and you got the volcano. You started getting these attractions. The Mirage had the volcano.
1:02:49
Speaker 1
Right.
1:02:50
Speaker 2
And it was like, man, I mean, if somebody came to town, we were going to the Mirage to see the volcano. Like that's what we were doing 100%. And so that kind of stuff started happening. And then there was like a theme park at the MGM.
1:03:05
Speaker 1
Yeah.
1:03:06
Speaker 2
And, and that, that, and that started going into the nineties and, and then it was really family, you know, it was really in the nineties. It was like a really family.
1:03:14
Speaker 1
Yeah.
1:03:15
Speaker 2
And it's crazy how big dance culture became in the early two thousands and switched, you know, started switching into the two, in the two thousands, but it was a great, it was great. I think that feel like that was the golden. I mean, obviously there was like the rat pack, the rat pack vibe, but there was something special about that late eighties. There was a sweet spot, man.
1:03:32
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.
1:03:33
Speaker 2
That's gone.
1:03:34
Speaker 1
And probably what makes that such a sweet spot, too, is because some of the people from that initial era were still there.
1:03:41
Speaker 2
Yeah, you had Siegfried and Roy, and you had Wayne Newton.
1:03:45
Speaker 1
Who you've gotten to. Yeah, yeah.
1:03:48
Speaker 2
Perform with Wayne. Yeah, we've done it.
1:03:49
Speaker 1
It's crazy. Yeah.
1:03:51
Speaker 2
That was another one of those things. It was just like, you knew where Wayne Newton lived.
1:03:55
Speaker 1
You actually knew where he lived. Oh, yeah.
1:03:57
Speaker 2
I mean, he had a huge compound in Green Valley. It's called Green Valley. It's in between... Henderson and Las Vegas. And it was a massive wall. My brother, I remember him coming home one night and being like, him and his buddies jumped up on the wall and looked over the wall into Wayne's world.
1:04:17
Speaker 1
Into Wayne's world.
1:04:19
Speaker 2
And they were so excited. And there was a helicopter.
1:04:24
Speaker 1
Was Tyson living there at that time too?
1:04:26
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. I love these little bits. It's like the gym I would go to. had a speed bag, and the ball, the bag was off of it, and there's just a chain hanging. And Tyson had come to the gym one day just to mess around and broke it. So forever, there's just a chain. They never replaced it. Those are like those little Las Vegas-centric things that I love. I went to a daddy day at school with my kids once, and one of the other dads was David Copperfields. wait it's like what yeah it's like vegas is wild um it was it's but yeah that was it was a good time it's a good time.
1:05:06
Speaker 1
David copperville it's phenomenal just like on his phone he was at your kid's school yeah his kid was.
1:05:12
Speaker 2
In the same grade as my grade as my kid yeah kids yeah funny yeah yeah he had a straggler yeah do you remember tupac nine yeah my friend sorry A kid on my golf team, his dad was one of the surgeons that worked on him. So it was like, because you know all of the whatever, the lore, is he alive or any of that. But my friend was like, I can confirm my dad was like in the room. Yeah. And yeah, that was a crazy, crazy thing.
1:05:39
Speaker 1
That's wild.
1:05:40
Speaker 2
That music was so good. That was when I was in high school, in my last couple years of high school is when all that stuff was, it was just so undeniable.
1:05:49
Speaker 1
Yeah. You were into hip hop? Yeah, either.
1:05:51
Speaker 2
It didn't matter, East Coast or West Coast. What was good was good, and it was just so good.
1:05:57
Speaker 1
Yeah. Did that put a pall on the city, though, for a bit?
1:06:01
Speaker 2
Or not so much? Not so much. Maybe for a couple of weeks. You know, it's in the headlines again.
1:06:05
Speaker 1
I know.
1:06:06
Speaker 2
The guy that, were they arrested, that guy? That's old Henderson that I was talking about. That's where you grew up? I lived a street over from where that guy's house was. That's where I lived with my sister when the band started.
1:06:19
Speaker 1
It's crazy that they solved that. Any songs we haven't talked about that you want to talk about from this?
1:06:25
Speaker 2
I'm okay.
1:06:28
Speaker 1
What's In a Heartbeat about?
1:06:30
Speaker 2
Well, most of the songs on the record are really personal songs and about actual people. In a Heartbeat is, again, a little bit, is the only one that's a little different. It was just, I'm just doing my best Chris Christopherson and just wrote a sad story. Yeah.
1:06:47
Speaker 1
He's Chris Christopherson is one of the, yeah, that was one of the few on the album where I knew right away. Okay. This is clearly, this is super sad.
1:06:55
Speaker 2
You know? Yeah.
1:06:56
Speaker 1
But, um, it's, it's a great listen.
1:06:58
Speaker 2
Oh, thanks. Yeah. The musicianship on that, the, with the outro, we just let them run. It goes on for about a minute at the end, which I don't typically do. They just, it sounds so good. We were just like, let the guys keep playing.
1:07:10
Speaker 1
Yeah.
1:07:11
Speaker 2
And I love, I love, I love the outro. Yeah.
1:07:13
Speaker 1
It's phenomenal, man. And who are you playing with on, on the road?
1:07:17
Speaker 2
We got guys. The bass player is Snake Blanton. He was an auxiliary musician with the Killers, and when Mark's not there, he plays bass. And then he's been with me on all three solo endeavors. And we got a drummer from the Howling Bells named Glenn. We got a pedal steel player who's also a Nevada kid, Muskrat. His name is Musgrat. Brady Musgrat Henry.
1:07:47
Speaker 1
Just Kristen and Musgrat.
1:07:49
Speaker 2
But yeah, there's like nine of us up there. But yeah, we got Robbie Conley, who's another Killers Auxiliary musician who gets to play lead with me on this and is like a phenomenal guitar player. And it's been going great.
1:08:02
Speaker 1
How does performing this feel compared to being the front man of the Killers?
1:08:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's a little bit more tame of an experience. But there's a I've been taking the time to tell a little bit more stories because the rooms are smaller, and it really lends itself to that, this music. And that's been really interesting. It gives you a whole new insight into the songs before you play them, and you might see them through a different lens.
1:08:30
Speaker 1
Do you walk? I was thinking, going back to you were loathe to be sitting for this part, but this album seems like it would lend itself... to sitting and you could sit for me i.
1:08:41
Speaker 2
Choose not to.
1:08:44
Speaker 1
You so you just are you stationed harry are.
1:08:46
Speaker 2
You i drew i try yeah i i do a lot with my face if i need to but i know i move a little bit i just it's just if if there's a moment you know i got i got a couple of moments worked out.
1:08:58
Speaker 1
Amazing And I'm realizing before we wrap up too, I never let you finish the Thrasher meeting. You said it.
1:09:04
Speaker 2
Was related to.
1:09:06
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.
1:09:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, it's okay. When we first moved to Payson, I don't want to over exaggerate. It wasn't like I was... It was like.
1:09:18
Speaker 2
Trauma that i carry but i was built i you know i i got into a couple of fights and i got i was mildly bullied and i got my butt kicked one time in particular by this kid that country kid that was just like i had no i had no chance it was like a thing that you just didn't see coming either it was like it wasn't even like we didn't like square up and you know he just it was sort of a sucker punch and it was just like those things you know when you're in the fourth grade You don't want that. That's not what you're looking for. And so my dad took the opportunity to try to teach me how to fight. And that's sort of where, in Utah, to thrash someone is to be a victor in a fight, basically. And so I've always felt, back to masculinity, like I wasn't as... masculine as maybe my dad wanted me to be or as I could have been. But I've become a thrasher in another sense.
1:10:22
Speaker 1
In another sense.
1:10:22
Speaker 2
Yeah, and so that was where the title came from. And on the cover, I'm swinging.
1:10:26
Speaker 1
What did he make of the theatrics of sort of your front man?
1:10:30
Speaker 2
Oh, once that happened, it was such a surprise to everybody, I think, the way it all played out, that he's always been really supportive and proud. But he's always been waiting for me to make this record. So he's really, really into this record.
1:10:46
Speaker 1
Also, before we go, what was the impetus for your falling out with or your distaste for Fall Out Boy and all of that? I have a similar distaste for it. Okay.
1:10:59
Speaker 2
It was weird. I think going back to that, they were on the same label as us and the same A & R guy, and I think we were just sort of fighting for attention. Okay. And I wanted all of it.
1:11:10
Speaker 1
Does.
1:11:13
Speaker 1
Does that competitive spirit remain in you?
1:11:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it's how I was born. I was just born this way, you know, just, uh, it's, um, I think it's healthy. I don't, you know, it shouldn't just be reserved for sports or, you know, I think, you know, it's just, it's okay to have, it's, it's become more of a friendly thing now, but, you know, I'm, I'm excited to hear something that that's great.
1:11:34
Speaker 1
Music in general has become more friendly or you've become more? Both. Yeah.
1:11:37
Speaker 2
And just both in the way that I see it, you know, there's room for all of us. Yeah.
1:11:41
Speaker 1
I do like some of the competitiveness, though. I do miss that. I mean, that quote was like, when I revisited it, I was like, that's a throwback to another time when you could just say crazy shit.
1:11:53
Speaker 2
I mean, you know, it just wasn't. They're just doing the best they can. They're just doing the music that they like, you know. I'm doing the music I like.
1:12:01
Speaker 1
Thanks for doing your music, man. Appreciate it. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Talladay. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for $ 4. 99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast Subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.
The Hosts
Malcolm Gladwell
Malcolm Gladwell is co-founder of Pushkin Industries and host of the hit podcast Revisionist History. He is a journalist, a speaker, and the author of several New York Times bestsellers including The Tipping…
Justin Richmond
Justin Richmond is producer and co-host of the music podcast Broken Record with writer Malcolm Gladwell, New York Times editor Bruce Headlam, and music producer—and Def Jam co-founder—Rick Rubin. Justin…
Bruce Headlam
Bruce Headlam is one of the co-creators of the music podcast Broken Record. He worked at The New York Times for 19 years, including two years running the 50-person Video…
Leah Rose
Leah Rose is a senior producer and hosts episodes of Broken Record. A former music editor at XXL Magazine, she also served as an on-air personality for Eminem’s SiriusXM channel, Shade 45.…
