Rick Rubin
In addition to being a podcast host, Frederick Jay “Rick” Rubin is an American record producer and former co-president of Columbia Records. Along with Russell Simmons, he is the co-founder…
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Australian singer-songwriter Grace Cummings has one of those voices that’s hard to forget. It’s raw, powerful and deeply expressive, capable of moving from a delicate whisper to a full-throated roar.
Broken Record host Justin Richmond first discovered Grace in 2019, when her debut album, Refuge Cove, was released on Flightless Records, the label founded by members of King Gizzard & the Lizard Wizard. With its stripped-down arrangements, plaintive songwriting and commanding vocals, the album quickly became one of Justin’s favorites.
Since then, Grace has expanded her sound considerably. For her two most recent albums, 2024’s Ramona and this year’s Bloodhorse!, she teamed up with Topanga Canyon-based producer Jonathan Wilson, who has worked with artists including Angel Olsen, Father John Misty and Margo Price. Together, they’ve moved beyond the spare acoustic sound of her early recordings, building lush, dramatic arrangements around Grace’s unmistakable voice and deeply personal songs.
On today’s episode, Grace talks with Justin about making Bloodhorse!, her Irish heritage and the influence of traditional Irish folk music on her songwriting. She also treats us to two performances, playing “Judy’s Pool” and “John Lennon.”
Pushkin. Grace Cummings, thank you for showing up and for doing this.
00:15
Speaker 2
I showed up.
00:16
Speaker 1
And for agreeing to play something.
00:18
Speaker 2
Thank you for having me.
00:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, I'm very honored to have you. And you said you're going to play a song which is not on your new album, Blood Horse, but you would have liked it to have been. Yeah, I mean.
00:34
Speaker 2
I think I chose this song because, yeah, I mean, I've got my guitar with me. There are two songs on the album that I play guitar on and I've been playing them for a lot of press. And this one is very much a part of the album and very much a part of the making of it. I wrote it when I was in Topanga. And I'm back now.
01:04
Speaker 1
Topanga here in Los Angeles, where.
01:06
Speaker 2
You were recording. Yes, recording with Jonathan, and it just reminds me of that time. And it's not on the album, but it's not going anywhere, you know what I mean?
01:16
Speaker 1
Oh, great, great. What's it called?
01:18
Speaker 2
It's called Judy's Pool. All right, shall I go?
01:22
Speaker 1
You shall.
01:45
Speaker 2
I just want to.
01:46
Speaker 3
Swim in Judy's pool Be the exception to her rules.
02:00
Speaker 4
I don't wanna.
02:01
Speaker 1
Be a hot.
02:02
Speaker 3
Girl It's not the mark I want on.
02:11
Speaker 5
The world.
02:15
Speaker 3
I just wanna leave something behind That took the trouble right from my mind I'm a fucking joke, it's true But I just want to be a joke for you The way that some people live their lives That weren't even given the chance to try Judy was a rebel once She said, let him love the fucking cunts And even though she's a Topanga girl A voice that draws from another world I think I'm going straight to hell Even though I've lived so well I'm the clumsier version of a great success And I'm on the list.
04:14
Speaker 2
As the devil's guest.
04:20
Speaker 3
I just wanna swim in Judy's pool I just wanna swim in.
04:30
Speaker 2
Judy's pool.
04:35
Speaker 3
I just wanna swim in Judy's pool I just wanna swim in Judy's pool Judy, Judy, Judy.
04:58
Speaker 1
That's beautiful.
04:59
Speaker 2
Thank you.
04:59
Speaker 1
Oh, man. When I first heard you, I still have no context for you. So I'm excited to learn more. But it feels to me like there's a soulfulness to the way you play, the way you sing, to your songs that used to exist in people like Jackson Brown or Joni or... um, any number of people, right? Stephen Stills, uh, I think at all California people now, but.
05:33
Speaker 2
Uh, there's nothing wrong with that.
05:36
Speaker 1
It's refreshing and it's, it's really soulful and it's beautiful.
05:39
Speaker 2
Thank you very much.
05:40
Speaker 1
Yeah.
05:40
Speaker 2
What a compliment.
05:41
Speaker 1
Yeah. Um, so what, what, what did you grow up listening to?
05:45
Speaker 2
What was, I mean, I grew up listening to a lot of stuff. I, I, uh, I was, I am lucky enough to have parents that rule and love great music. But I also was the youngest of three children.
06:06
Speaker 1
How young compared to?
06:09
Speaker 2
Not very, but I was very much on the outside and a bit of a loner. That's not true. I was so much of a loner and kind of still am and would rely on my imagination and music and stuff like that to keep me company. And, you know, that means as you grow older, people, you gravitate towards other freaks and and um I remember my um like my year one teacher I would have been like or year two teacher I would have been like six or something I was telling her because I would I would stay like uh kind of in the classroom at lunchtime or you know I didn't have many friends and I told her that I liked this band from Australia called The Vines. And at lunchtime, she secretly gave me a copy of Rolling Stone and was like, I look back on it now being like, that's a bit naughty, but like that rules because The Vines were in there. And then I just kind of started collecting things or just like I don't know, listening to the radio and taping what I liked. But my parents listened to a whole range of stuff and a lot of traditional Irish music and opera and classical music and then, you know, the classics. You know, we all know what that is.
08:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.
08:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, and it just grows, like, it's something that I miss now about discovering music. It's like, you know, to show my age, you would, you know, read something that you liked about a musician and they would reference this and then you'd be able to read about them or like, you know, find something on the radio. And I, and I feel like that's something that I miss in culture today. It's kind of like a, You get told more what you like rather than being able to discover it, if that makes sense.
08:45
Speaker 1
You built your musical world almost brick by brick. You would hear things, have no context for them, but then hear an artist say they loved this person. It'd perk your ears up. So then you would next... that's that thing and sort of start to build the context around why you like what you like and why certain things sound the way they sound.
09:03
Speaker 4
Yeah.
09:03
Speaker 1
It would help you sort of build this world of music. Yeah. That now, and innocently, pretty innocently, you know, whereas now you just served things.
09:13
Speaker 4
Yeah.
09:13
Speaker 2
And it can be so vast as well. I think that now, uh, like it's a lot easier for you to be like put into a box and, and there's kind of like, um, you know, people are like, what is your music or what do you like or blah, blah, blah. And it's like, there isn't one answer, um, that can, you know what I mean? Like, like it baffles me. Like sometimes when it's just like, tell me what you are. It's like, Where do you fit in this world? It's kind of like, well, everywhere, you know, I don't want to fit into one kind of thing, if that makes sense.
09:59
Speaker 1
Well, the idea, I mean, I guess that you might fit into a certain scene or a certain thing, right? And that sort of then pigeonholes how you must look or how you must sound and present yourself. And that becomes inhibiting.
10:13
Speaker 2
Yeah.
10:14
Speaker 1
You know?
10:14
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think I've struggled with that a little bit, trying to, uh like people trying to fit me into a scene and not knowing what that is yeah which is great but yeah i don't know a lot of my answers to questions of like what's your music like i was like i.
10:35
Speaker 1
Don't know well it's beautiful so you start there that's that's you know um i don't know if you intend it to be beautiful i mean how do you think your music sounds to you i mean is there.
10:46
Speaker 2
A I don't know. I think that, look, life does not make sense. That's kind of like the number one thing. It doesn't make sense. So I struggle to find words to describe things coherently, as you'll probably find out in this podcast. But, you know.
11:12
Speaker 2
Music is a way to keep yourself company, to kind of go through things that are like down in the basement that you can't, you don't have words for, you can't say out loud, like kind of confessions and things like that. And it's, for me, I mean, whether I'm by myself or in the studio with a billion tracks of people playing, the important thing for me is the, the feeling of it.
11:47
Speaker 1
What, how you're feeling in the moment.
11:49
Speaker 2
And, and what it, what it, what it feels like. Um, I mean, that's how I would direct, um, people that, that would play with me or my band. It's like, you're really great at what you do. I'm not going to, you know, pick it, you know, telling you how to play a cello when you're the greatest at it, but I'll, I'll tell you how it feels. Um, If that makes sense. And that's the most important thing. So I suppose it's like, what's the soul of it?
12:18
Speaker 1
Yeah.
12:20
Speaker 2
If that makes sense. And I don't know, on the inside of the cover of Blood Horse is a painting by my mum, Lisa, of a patch of sky that I look at every night when I'm home in Australia. And, you know, I've seen that sky, you know, in sunrises, sunsets. storms, beautiful days, hot air balloons, flocks of parrots, full moons, unable to see anything because of bushfire, smoke, and it changes every day. And I think that's what the music is like. It's what the world is like and it's what my brain is like. It's all over the place and that's kind of the way it should be. Well, there's a way that feels.
13:09
Speaker 1
Music that you didn't make, music that you're just a fan of, that you listen to, is it similar for that? Does it change as well?
13:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, music that, I mean, I like a lot of things. And I like something if I believe in it. And feel something. And do I believe it? You know, like sometimes who's come across somebody live And you'll just be like, I believe this person.
13:41
Speaker 1
Yeah.
13:42
Speaker 2
I believe this. And sometimes you go, I don't believe you.
13:47
Speaker 1
Yeah.
13:47
Speaker 2
Do you know what I mean?
13:47
Speaker 1
Yeah.
13:48
Speaker 2
Yeah. And that's kind of it. Like, it doesn't matter what it is.
13:51
Speaker 1
Yeah.
13:52
Speaker 2
I think it's a really bullshit thing to judge music on a genre or something like that. It's like, do I believe it or not?
14:00
Speaker 1
Yeah.
14:00
Speaker 2
You know what I mean?
14:01
Speaker 4
Yeah.
14:01
Speaker 1
I mean, that's, I mean... That's a great barometer for whether or not music is good, whether you believe it. Although sometimes the best music is unbelievable, too. I mean, your voice to a degree is unbelievable. In the best of ways. It's like, where does that come from? Did you always sing growing up? Does your family sing, perform?
14:24
Speaker 2
Nobody in my family sings. It does, no, except for my late nana. I wear a necklace around my neck. I don't take it off. And that was my nana Eileen's. When I knew her, she was very unwell. And even though she wanted to say, you know, hi, Gracie, how's school, blah, blah, blah, for the years that I knew her, she would only ever say one phrase. And it was, I do my best. And that's all I ever heard her say. But people would talk about how she had the most beautiful voice, singing voice and piano. And I'd never heard it. And when my parents were moving out of our family home, they were going through the boxes in the shed. And there was a record and it wasn't on vinyl. It was on, you know, that stuff that if you break it, it'll... Like shellac? Like the old 78 or something. Which meant that it kept and I could play it.
15:29
Speaker 1
Wow.
15:29
Speaker 2
And I put that on and I heard my nana sing and it was just magnificent.
15:36
Speaker 1
So she had pressed a record at some point.
15:39
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. It was her singing a couple of songs in Irish and some classic songs and playing the piano. And it was just... Yeah, I feel like that's my connection with her.
15:56
Speaker 1
Wow.
15:56
Speaker 2
Yeah, she was like an operatic kind of soprano singer.
16:00
Speaker 1
Makes sense for the Irish. I feel like that is sort of how Irish songs are sung.
16:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, or kind of like.
16:09
Speaker 2
The thing I love about Irish music or trad Irish music is that kind of keening quality to the voice, which is like a... kind of raw kind of animalistic i mean it it's women keen at like funerals and things like that yeah it's but it's that kind of primal i don't know basement release of the voice it's it's.
16:36
Speaker 1
Almost it's almost um uh blues ish in its way like the way um similar in terms of which you at least imagine it's trying, it's accomplishing. It's just like, it's a wailing.
16:48
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah.
16:49
Speaker 2
It's a, it's a wailing.
16:50
Speaker 4
Yeah.
16:50
Speaker 2
It's a, it's a cry.
16:52
Speaker 1
Yeah.
16:53
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I, yeah, it's like, I also think that like, I've been asked a lot of questions about music and the album and stuff like that. And I think that ultimately there's kind of like two things, or at least for me, it's to whatever it is, please help me or thank you for helping me.
17:15
Speaker 1
Those are the two categories of songs.
17:17
Speaker 2
Almost, yeah. Or, you know, yeah, kind of.
17:20
Speaker 1
Wow.
17:21
Speaker 2
Please or thank you.
17:24
Speaker 1
To God, any people?
17:26
Speaker 2
Something, yeah. It's like there's a desperate quality in everybody. And I think that I believe people when I can see a little bit of it.
17:38
Speaker 1
Yeah.
17:38
Speaker 2
And that comes with things that are joyful, too.
17:40
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know what I mean? I think so. It's joyful, too. Yeah, like there's a bit out of your control.
17:47
Speaker 2
It's pure joy, you know.
17:48
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think it makes sense. Did you listen to Irish music before you discovered that record of your grandmother? Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay. Irish music, I don't know a ton. I know bits and pieces. What is the... If you were to sort of explain traditional Irish music to someone, I mean, what should someone listen to to.
18:15
Speaker 2
I grew up listening to, I don't know, a lot of things. I recently recorded, which it was a bold move, and I still don't know if I should have done it, for War Child Australia, a rendition of My Lag and Love, which is a Trout Irish song that I dedicated to my nana. Um, but right now, um, they're my, my favorite called the gloaming. Um, they have a fiddle player, Martin Hayes, um, who I think is fantastic. And they, uh, um, yeah, trad and current and, and beautiful.
18:56
Speaker 1
They're, they're newer band.
18:58
Speaker 2
I mean, they're, they're, they've been around, but they're playing.
19:02
Speaker 1
They're playing. Yeah. Irish music is, um, it's a, it's such a rich folk tradition, but it feels, and it definitely Irish and then kind of Scottish, British, obviously influenced greatly the American folk scene, but I just, I feel like I know so little about the actual roots of any of that folk music, you know, in terms of. Yeah.
19:24
Speaker 2
I mean, like often they're pretty desperate cries, you know but there's a, there's a, there's a kind of joy in releasing those kinds of things. I mean, it just feels like gutter. It's guttural, you know, it's like really good country music. It's like, it sounds, you know, like I'm not too into a lot of new country music, but you know, like if you listen to you know old violin or something it's just like that stuff is you know it has this formula but you listen to it it's like absolutely just like yeah heart-wrenching kind of stuff you know desperate and it's also ways to um I don't know, keep stories alive and mythology alive and, um, remember, uh, people in history. And it's just, it, it, it's the depths of, of, of stuff that we don't really like to show people on the outside. Maybe.
20:27
Speaker 1
Yeah. I'm reminded that, um, Frederick Douglas, who was an American, he was an American slave and, and, um, who escaped slavery, educated himself. and wrote his memoir and became like a big abolitionist here in America, in the States back in the 1800s. But I remember he at some point, I read somewhere, he visited Ireland, happened to be right at the start or a year into the famine. And he said at some point in some publication when he got back to the States that he hadn't heard wailing like that aside from You know, when he was in slavery himself. I was like, Jesus Christ.
21:10
Speaker 2
Well, Sinead O'Connor says that music is made by the oppressed. And that makes sense.
21:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:20
Speaker 2
And like, you know, he talks about the famine. It's like, that wasn't something that naturally happened, you know.
21:29
Speaker 1
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:30
Speaker 2
Because the English took the food. You know, like, there was food.
21:34
Speaker 1
Yeah, they're right.
21:35
Speaker 2
It just wasn't for the Irish.
21:36
Speaker 1
Purposely starved, right?
21:37
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:38
Speaker 1
Right. For years.
21:41
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And it's how you get, you know, it's, you know, talking about slavery, it's like, it's how people get by.
21:50
Speaker 1
Yeah.
21:51
Speaker 2
You keep yourself company. And Sinead O'Connor, music is for the oppressed, you know, like.
21:57
Speaker 2
You seem to soothe yourself, to help.
22:01
Speaker 1
Yeah.
22:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, to get by.
22:02
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, it's funny. I think people think of oppressed people or people going through a stroke as being, you know, dour. And maybe there's a bit of that, but there is a ton of just trying to time a ton of trying to lift lift your spirits lift other people's spirits trying and enjoy and and all of that.
22:22
Speaker 2
Right yeah yeah what what else do we do what.
22:25
Speaker 1
Else do we do yeah how how like yeah i mean it's uh that's part of uh it's part of the human experience you know so you're australia i didn't know you were irish so.
22:36
Speaker 2
Yeah yeah it's just irish and a little sicilian have you been to ireland You know, I have been to Sicily where my family comes from in Lipari, which was such a beautiful thing to do. And I have never been to Ireland and I want to go so badly. And every time I do a tour of Europe and the UK, I'm just like, get it in there. So here's the, get me in there. I might never leave if I go.
23:05
Speaker 1
Hopefully it can happen.
23:07
Speaker 2
But I would love to and I would love to do like a, a kind of, I don't know, spiritual, mythological little tour.
23:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, that'd be incredible, I'm sure. Yeah. How did you get, how did your start in music come about? I first heard you on an album called Refuge Cove, which was six, seven years ago now. Aye, aye, aye. Would have been the first, I know.
23:33
Speaker 2
Yeah.
23:33
Speaker 1
It doesn't feel like that long ago. But that was the first thing you put out?
23:36
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, it was. I mean, I didn't, I.
23:40
Speaker 2
I mean, I love music. I've always loved music and I, I've done it for myself mostly. Um, you know, I, I started playing to other people when I was a teenager. I, I was, um, I played the drums and I sang, um, in a band and then I would, you know, pick up the guitar at like 3am at parties and sung then and then secretly kind of did it and, and did it to kind of soothe myself. Um, And I was an actor and still am, I still would like to be just kind of taken over a bit. Um, but you know, that was, that was my main thing.
24:18
Speaker 1
Theater or?
24:19
Speaker 2
Um, yeah, yeah. Theater. Um, and, and trained. And it was kind of, yeah, that album I, I recorded with, um, Jesse Williams and Leah Senior, who's a good friend of mine, but she, you know, would be at those parties and she's a fantastic australian she's.
24:37
Speaker 1
A folk singer too right yeah yeah senior yeah.
24:39
Speaker 2
Um and she was just like you have to do this like stop doing this by yourself and i was terrified but i'm i'm very thankful for her.
24:48
Speaker 1
So she just heard you yeah.
24:50
Speaker 2
Yeah um you know we would sing together and we were in a choir together and you know like i would sing with people but i would never have the confidence to kind of sing my own things you know i didn't think they were good enough or didn't fit into like the um purest culture that perhaps some people around me were in and stuff like that and she was just like nah forget all that shit like like do it and um i'm i'm very glad that she did did.
25:20
Speaker 1
You have that group of songs written already or.
25:23
Speaker 2
I mean i've always had them i just never did did anything you know um.
25:28
Speaker 1
From that original album those songs.
25:30
Speaker 2
So the original album and she was like oh you know eric um old former member of uh king is and um their record label at the time uh flightless came to a show and he was like do you have an album that we can release and i was like yes and i didn't but i had like you know like well recorded demos um And that was Refuge Co. Wow.
25:58
Speaker 1
Not just the demos. Did you redo them or those were the demos?
26:00
Speaker 2
I mean, they were the recordings that I did with Jesse and Leo at their house. And that was that.
26:08
Speaker 1
Did you feel it was the start of something different now? Or did you just assume it was a one-off thing and you go back to acting?
26:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I can't do it now, but there are things I regret, like having my own name. Because I would never think that I would play outside of the retreat front bar in Melbourne. And now I'm like, I should have picked some other kind of name.
26:33
Speaker 1
It's great to use your name.
26:36
Speaker 2
People are like, what are you called? What's your band? And I'm like, oh, my name's Grace Cummings. It just feels weird.
26:43
Speaker 5
Yeah.
26:45
Speaker 2
But no, I don't, I don't, I didn't think, I mean, still now I do something and I'm like, I'm never going to do that again.
26:50
Speaker 4
Wow.
26:50
Speaker 2
I don't know how, I don't know, I'll never, you know, I did Blood Horse and I was like, that's it, you know. Really? But when I'm playing on stage or in the studio, I've never... never ever as present as that. And that could be at home too when I'm singing. I'm never that present. And that's the thing that I chase. It doesn't have to be in front of an audience. It's lovely to have that connection. But I don't know how I see myself. And when things come out and you see yourself being written about or photos here or something like that, I'm like, I don't know who that person is almost you know it's like a portrait that's made of you that you've helped make but you're like I don't know if I like I relate to that person in a way but it's a weird thing it's.
27:48
Speaker 1
Like an avatar it's like some.
27:50
Speaker 2
Yeah it's strange and then I think someone's going to find me out like someone's going to bust me you know soon and they're going to find out you know like oh my god she's you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah someone's going to figure it out sooner or later.
28:05
Speaker 1
Did that open up a network of people to you within Australia?
28:10
Speaker 2
It was really, you know, I'm good friends with the Giz boys and very grateful for them as well because being not known and then being put out on a Gizzard label meant that there was a group of people that would kind of just, listen to you no matter what.
28:33
Speaker 1
There was ears and eyeballs on it instantly.
28:36
Speaker 4
Yeah.
28:36
Speaker 2
And that, and that did help. And, um, and gosh, I can't even, I can't even remember. Like I, um, just people popping up. I don't know. I made my second record in, um, COVID, uh, Storm Queen. Um, and I was touring and, uh, I heard a record, um, And I thought the production on this is incredible. And I hadn't thought that in a long time. Like the last time I was like, this production is incredible was like Wilson Pickett's Hey Jude or something, you know. And I was like, who is this producer? And it was Jonathan Wilson.
29:16
Speaker 1
What album had you heard?
29:18
Speaker 2
It was big time. It was Angel Olsen's record.
29:21
Speaker 3
Amazing.
29:22
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hadn't, I mean, I love Angel and I've listened to her music. since but I didn't know Angels music really very much. Um, uh, but I was sent that and I, um, thought it was fantastic and the songs were beautiful, but I was like the production, I was like, whoa. Um, and I was really tired in the tour van, um, and somehow, you know, got some confidence and I thought, you know, fuck it. I'll just reach out to the guy. Um, and he sent me a photo back like 20 minutes later. being like, I'm listening to Raglan. And he was playing in Roger Waters band at the time. And he was backstage and sent me a photo of the big inflatable pig. And I was like, is this real? Is this happening? And then I said, do you want to do a record together? He said, yeah. So, and it's become one of the best relationships in my life and musical relationships, you know, friendships, but musical relationships, like Yeah, we get each other and we're both a little nuts.
30:33
Speaker 1
Yes, I can see. Jonathan Wilson, I mean, he just lives and breathes it, man.
30:39
Speaker 2
You can't stop him.
30:39
Speaker 1
Everything he does is like of a certain, it's just, it's like, I don't know, he's like the Neil Young of producers or something. Everything's of just a certain quality. It's just like, you know it's going to be something worth listening to.
30:52
Speaker 2
Yeah, he's incredible. And he's not, you know, like the first time I ever spoke to him, he was like, you know, on the phone to kind of talk about what we're doing. You know, I'm not a precious person. It's very much like whatever, like just have an idea and it's like, let's try, you know. And the first thing that he said was like, just so you know, I'm not one of those producers that like sits in the chair and tells everyone what to do. And I was like, sick. So it's kind of like, I mean, he's incredible. And on these records, he's a thousand people, you know, like he's, he is outrageous. Like I've never met a musician like him, but also it's very much kind of like the two of us kind of running around like Jack Russell's getting really, really excited by music. And you know what I mean? Like, it's just like, it's, it's playtime and it's, it's just the best thing ever. And, you know, you can say whatever you want and he'll be like, hell yeah, let's go.
31:53
Speaker 1
I'm like, all right, you know? I mean, the last two albums especially, I mean, are just so sonically rich. I mean, and it's so, the world you have created in both of them are insane. And it's such a contradiction, or such not, excuse me, it's such a, compared to the first one, you know, it's, which is so sparse. There is a, there's a, it's like, wow. Did you always hear your music sounding the way that it does now? Or?
32:24
Speaker 2
I think so. I think that's the way that I hear the world. Like, it's very grand music. it's dramatic. Um, you know, people kind of like say, Oh, you've trained in theater. Like there's a drama in there and blah, blah, blah. And I'm, I kind of like, yes, I, I, that is true, but the world is full of, it's a melodrama, you know? Um, I mean, you play a bit part in, in, in nature's great epic. Um, but that's what it is, you know? Um, and that's how it feels to me. Um, And, yeah, going back to, like, what a song is or what's important about it is the feeling and it's the primal kind of feeling. So it always does kind of sound like that in my head or feel like that in my head, whether it's sung with just a guitar or with a fucking orchestra. It's just if the feeling is there. Yeah. It's grand.
33:28
Speaker 1
Yeah.
33:29
Speaker 2
You know what I mean?
33:29
Speaker 1
Yeah. There's always a grandness implied. Yeah. No matter how you're playing the songs.
33:33
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:34
Speaker 2
I mean, like, what's it for otherwise?
33:39
Speaker 1
I think luckily for you, like, just there's a grandness and a drama to your... your voice and the way, the way you, so to your earlier point, it's like, whether it's just you and a guitar or, or whether you actually do fill it out with these like incredible orchestrations, it's an arrangements, it's going to sound great. You know, you don't, I don't think you have to do too much to get there, you know?
34:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, like I know I have a big, a big voice, but I like, yeah, I, it's a, it's a, yeah, it's a release. It's the biggest release that I could have in my life. I'm very grateful that I have a connection to my voice because it's sometimes my only source of comfort.
34:26
Speaker 1
Wow.
34:28
Speaker 4
Yeah.
34:29
Speaker 2
It's a bit somber.
34:30
Speaker 1
No.
34:31
Speaker 2
No.
34:32
Speaker 1
But, I mean, it's true. That's the truth.
34:35
Speaker 2
But it's a source of joy, too.
34:37
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. You can tell you're having fun making the album.
34:40
Speaker 2
I'm having a lot of fun.
34:41
Speaker 1
Yeah. Where does Blood Horse come from?
34:45
Speaker 2
Blood Horse, it took me a while to name the record. I don't know. I can't remember. It just popped into my head when I was on the phone to Jonathan talking about something, like one of our rambling conversations. talking about something I mean like technically a blood horse is like a purebred a thoroughbred like racehorse like an archaic term for that but it's also kind of I feel like blood horse or like that song in particular brings me back to like if we were talking about me like people are like are you the blood horse and I'm like sometimes like I feel like I like when I go to sleep, for instance, I feel like I'm not really resting. I'm just like waiting in the stalls, you know, and then I open my eyes and you just fucking run, you know, if it's to something away from something or whatever. Um, and, um, but it also, it's like a, it, it, it's a, it's a big word. It has an exclamation mark on it. Um, it's a, it's kind of, mythological ish you know it's a grand kind of um image as well yeah.
36:05
Speaker 1
Yeah does does that that feeling of being in a in a stall just waiting to be sort of released or unleashed maybe it was has that is that has that intensified um now that you're you know making albums and you're on the road and you're promoting i mean does that Does being in or a part of a music industry make you feel even more? Does it intensify that feeling?
36:37
Speaker 2
Let me think a little bit about that. Yeah, it does intensify it a little bit. I mean, you know, it's a hard industry to be in. But, you know, I've done it to myself, I suppose. But I'm getting better at being in music. the industry. I think quitting drinking helped me get a lot better at that. That helped my life in general. And I don't know, in the last little while and whilst making Blood Horse, I have kind of grown to become a little bit more myself. And it's the person that, you know, my family has said to me and I recognize it in myself. It's like what I was like, you know, more when I was a child, you know.
37:35
Speaker 1
I'm sober now.
37:37
Speaker 4
Yeah.
37:37
Speaker 2
Or just, yeah, like figuring out who I am or kind of like getting rid of a little layer of care that's like, you know what, what can you offer the world that it doesn't already have is you. Um, and sometimes a lot of the time you don't like that or you struggle with that, but, um, that's all you've got. And, um, I've learned that, you know, making music, I used to think, you know, oh, if I say this, or if I say that it's so selfish, it's all about you. Like who gives a shit? It's not true because you're not, you're not that unique. Um, so I, I think I learned there was a song on Ramona called a precious thing. And it was kind of like the most raw, um, kind of upfront, um, song on that record. And I learned from, um, people's, the way that people, um, spoke to me about it and how it, they related to it or how it made them feel held or something like that. It's like, it's not all about you. Um, It's about giving that bit that's hard to think about to others, if that makes sense.
39:01
Speaker 1
Yeah.
39:03
Speaker 2
If you feel something, someone else definitely does too.
39:10
Speaker 3
Yeah.
39:10
Speaker 1
Back to we're not that unique. Most of our... very personal traumas can be very relatable.
39:16
Speaker 2
Totally, totally.
39:18
Speaker 1
You know, someone has gone through something similar or feels something similar.
39:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, and it's taken a lot of, it's taken a lot of courage, you know, like I've always kind of not been very comfortable with myself, but I thought, well, if you've got the opportunity, just have a little courage and be yourself. Maybe you love yourself or maybe someone else will feel a little more loved or understood or something, you know. And little Gracie would be, Proud of you.
39:50
Speaker 1
Wow.
39:51
Speaker 4
Wow.
39:53
Speaker 1
You maybe lost the line of connection between who you were as a kid as you became an adult. You feel you're back to that person now.
40:00
Speaker 2
I'm coming back to that person and I am comfortable as that person. And I know a little bit more about who's looking back at me in the mirror. And there was a very long time where I had no idea, you know, because I... think that I, you know, whether consciously or subconsciously, like would adopt the, the, the, the opinions of others or the, or the likes and the, and the wants of others or the, what success meant or, or, or things like that to please people or to not get in trouble or to, uh, you know, get by or not feel ashamed or, or judged or, or something like that. Um, And I just think that's exhausting. And it's kind of freeing to.
40:59
Speaker 1
I.
41:01
Speaker 2
Don't know, you're talking about stills? Oh, it's Crosby, actually. Let your freak flag fly.
41:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, Crosby, yeah. I'll let you free. I almost cut my hair.
41:13
Speaker 2
You almost cut my hair. Yeah, yeah, but like.
41:16
Speaker 1
The idea of conforming, but then realizing there's not a ton of.
41:24
Speaker 1
You might think by conforming you're endearing yourself to people or you're creating a community, but you're really just alienating yourself more than you are.
41:32
Speaker 2
Connecting to others. And then I wouldn't believe myself. How could someone watch me and believe me when I don't believe myself? Not to say that other music that I've made is not real, but I think there's just a little step forward that I've made that I would love to continue to do. which is to kind of go further into that. Yeah, because I don't want to regret anything. I don't want to regret anything.
41:59
Speaker 1
It makes the album cover make more sense as well. Not that it... I mean, it was a great cover, but just the doll. But, I mean.
42:07
Speaker 2
Yeah.
42:08
Speaker 1
As an allusion to sort of rediscovering oneself.
42:12
Speaker 5
Yeah, yeah.
42:13
Speaker 2
It's the first record that doesn't have my own face on it, but it kind of feels like my own.
42:18
Speaker 1
More you than maybe some of the other covers. The cover for Ramona is amazing, too.
42:23
Speaker 2
Glamorous, I should say. That is kind of more fake than the doll. I was wearing a wig. I wasn't well at the time. I.
42:34
Speaker 2
You know, you can't tell because it's taken a little further away. But other photos, I was wearing different colored eyes. I didn't want to be myself. And it was called Ramona, you know. So that's interesting to me.
42:49
Speaker 1
Like as inhibiting a different person?
42:52
Speaker 2
Not that I was doing it like consciously like a Bowie kind of thing. But I just, I did it and I look back on it and I'm like, that's actually so funny because that's not. And I don't know, I'm still kind of questioning why I did that.
43:10
Speaker 1
Might that be the thespian side of you? You know, where you want to take on a character?
43:15
Speaker 2
No, I think that was the fearful side. Yeah. And the Ramona side, I suppose. Like, that's kind of what I fell back on. Like the image that other people have. Might want you to be.
43:28
Speaker 1
You felt that's what people wanted you to be.
43:30
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
43:30
Speaker 1
It was just sort of glamorous.
43:32
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Green-eyed kind of.
43:34
Speaker 1
Siren.
43:36
Speaker 2
Quiet girl, you know. Yeah. Yeah.
43:39
Speaker 1
That's interesting. I'm reading Kim Gordon's book right now, which I'm late to because that came out a while back.
43:47
Speaker 2
I'm late to everything, don't worry.
43:50
Speaker 1
I'm halfway through now. And she's like, you know, it's in the early nineties run, like when goo comes out and she has, she's talking about similar things. I mean, she just doesn't, she's like trying to find her like who I've been trying to be cool this whole time. And that means by being cool, that means I'm trying to really be a drogenous or relate to the boys, you know? And, but also maybe I want to be glamorous or cute or whatever, or, or, and what is and then if I play into that and then it becomes this convoluted it was becoming a convoluted sort of debate in her mind for her of like which one is giving a win to someone else versus just being who I am yeah.
44:25
Speaker 2
Yeah that's right that's right and none of them need to make that much sense I mean do it if you want and you know like again life doesn't make sense you don't have to be like you're not a written character but you have to like Play out the bits for, you know.
44:44
Speaker 4
Yeah.
44:44
Speaker 2
I mean, I could walk outside and get hit by a bus. I would like to kind of, I mean, I don't want to, but I'd like to do my life, live my life so that if I do get hit by that bus, I'll feel like I did the best I could.
45:03
Speaker 1
Yeah.
45:04
Speaker 2
I do my best.
45:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. Do you want to play something else from? From your album?
45:09
Speaker 2
You know what? I would bloody love to.
45:12
Speaker 1
Great. So happy to hear that.
45:17
Speaker 2
Joke.
45:37
Speaker 5
I saw you sing with Paul today And a tear rolled down my mother's face.
45:48
Speaker 3
I wish I still had childhood grace.
45:54
Speaker 5
And that everybody had a good time John, the war still isn't over Even.
46:12
Speaker 3
Though we want it gone.
46:17
Speaker 5
But we've still got the Rolling Stones They're just in need of a roll and rhythm.
46:33
Speaker 3
John, John, Lennon, Lennon. John, John, Lennon, Lennon. John, John, Lennon, Lennon. John, John, Lennon, Lennon.
46:44
Speaker 5
John, John, Lennon, Lennon.
46:47
Speaker 3
John, John, Lennon, Lennon.
47:09
Speaker 5
John can you hold me like a baby.
47:17
Speaker 2
Cause I don't want to be alone riding on my own.
47:29
Speaker 1
Waking up.
47:31
Speaker 3
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47:38
Speaker 4
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47:54
Speaker 1
<HAL> Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Talladay. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for $ 4. 99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast Subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richman.
The Hosts
Malcolm Gladwell
Malcolm Gladwell is co-founder of Pushkin Industries and host of the hit podcast Revisionist History. He is a journalist, a speaker, and the author of several New York Times bestsellers including The Tipping…
Justin Richmond
Justin Richmond is producer and co-host of the music podcast Broken Record with writer Malcolm Gladwell, New York Times editor Bruce Headlam, and music producer—and Def Jam co-founder—Rick Rubin. Justin…
Bruce Headlam
Bruce Headlam is one of the co-creators of the music podcast Broken Record. He worked at The New York Times for 19 years, including two years running the 50-person Video…
Leah Rose
Leah Rose is a senior producer and hosts episodes of Broken Record. A former music editor at XXL Magazine, she also served as an on-air personality for Eminem’s SiriusXM channel, Shade 45.…
