Amy Westervelt
Amy Westervelt is an award-winning investigative print and audio journalist. In 2015, she received a Rachel Carson award for women greening journalism for her role in creating a women-only climate…
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Climate journalists Amy Westervelt, Nina Lakhani and Alleen Brown share whether they loved or hated the polarizing, big budget, box office flop, Digger. Plus a discussion on the role of pop culture in confronting the climate crisis and some of the team’s favorite socially conscious music and movies. In the second half of the episode, Ugandan environmental journalist Diana Taremwa-Karakire talks about what it’s like covering the controversial East African Crude Oil Pipeline or EACOP.
Watch list from today’s show:
1. Digger (2026), director Alejandro Iñárritu’s big huge climate movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbW1DmEECiM
2. History of Concrete (2026), John Wilson’s quirky infrastructure documentary with environmental undertones: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O05arcJjOd0
3. The Great Experiment (2026), a portrait of a polarized United States during Trump’s first term, by directors Stephen Maing and Eric Daniel Metzgar: https://www.thegreatexperimentfilm.com/trailer
4. Armageddon (1998) doesn’t get remembered as fossil fuel industry propaganda but has a strong pro-oil message. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-8eEniEfgU
5. No Other Land (2024) documents a Palestinian family’s fight to defend their land against Israeli settlers and soldiers in the occupied West Bank, by Yuval Abraham, Basel Adra, Hamdan Ballal and Rachel Szor: https://releasing.dogwoof.com/no-other-land
6. In The Voice of Hind Rajab (2025), director Kaouther Ben Hania dramatizes the real-life killing of a 5-year-old Palestinian child by Israeli soldiers as she begs paramedics on the telephone to come save her: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrssPpqv6vc
7. Families Like Ours (2024), Thomas Vinterberg’s Danish TV drama with climate displacement as the backdrop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AAPM6y7yCA
Listen list from today’s show:
1. Neil Young is as angry as he ever was, and we’re here for it. Let’s Roll Again was the stand out song (by some distance) from his 2025 album Talkin’ To the Trees, a plea to American carmakers to catch up with China and make better, cheaper electric vehicles. It includes an iconic dig at Elon Musk: “If your a fascist, then get a Tesla. If it’s electric, it doesn’t matter.” https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/neil-young-tesla-lets-roll-again-1235330354/
2. Is Bruce Springsteen’s song Streets of Minneapolis corny? Perhaps. But it’s still cathartic to sing along to for those of us from the city. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDaPdpwA4Iw&list=RDGDaPdpwA4Iw&start_radio=1
3. The late Irish musician Sinead O’Connor was often inspired to write about injustices around her, like the beautiful song Black Boys on Mopeds (1990) which is a scathing critique of institutional racism in the UK. https://medium.com/@angel.lloyd/england-is-not-the-mythical-land-of-madam-george-and-roses-6cdb103ec6a
Reading List:
1. Don’t Look Up (2021) by Adam McKay was the last big climate satire to hit our screens. It was also a flop with critics, but unlike Digger, was a hit with audiences: https://www.theguardian.com/film/2022/jan/08/dont-look-up-four-climate-experts-on-the-polarising-disaster-film
2. “Indigenous Communities, Activists in Africa Gird for Legal Battles with Governments over Climate Harms,” by Diana Diana Taremwa-Karakire: https://drilled.media/litigation-and-law/indigenous-communities-activists-in-africa-gird-for-legal-battles-with-governments-over-climate-harms/
3. “Africa’s Longest Crude Oil Export Pipeline Isn’t Just Taking Indigenous Land, It Is Disturbing the Dead,” by by Diana Diana Taremwa-Karakire: https://drilled.media/news/eacop-graves/
4. Indigenous Times (magazine): https://indigenoustime.com/about-us
Hello and welcome back to Drilled.
00:23
Speaker 2
This is The Spill, our weekly news.
00:26
Speaker 1
Podcast where we talk about all kinds of things related to climate, news and policy.
00:30
Speaker 2
But today, something a little more fun, culture.
00:34
Speaker 1
We're going to talk about the movie Digger, and I'm going to tell you why in a minute.
00:38
Speaker 3
But first, introduce yourselves, ladies. Tell the people who you are. I'm Eileen Brown. I'm an editor and reporter for Drilled.
00:48
Speaker 4
I'm Nina Lakhani. I'm the global climate justice reporter.
00:51
Speaker 3
And I'm Amy Westervelt. King shit. No, I'm just kidding.
00:59
Speaker 4
La jefa, as we say here in Mexico.
01:04
Speaker 1
Okay, so we're going to talk about this movie because, well, A, it's a climate satire. So, you know, it's something we probably would have gotten around to at some point anyway. But also, it's been kind of the topic of some discourse because it has not been doing well at the box office. And it's been getting... Pretty well panned by critics as well. So we thought it'd be a good time to talk about what we think of it and kind of like its place in the sort of broader conversation of climate, TV and film in general.
01:36
Speaker 2
Did we all just see it this weekend for this week?
01:39
Speaker 5
Show?
01:39
Speaker 2
Yes.
01:40
Speaker 5
Yep.
01:40
Speaker 3
Okay.
01:41
Speaker 5
We're good.
01:41
Speaker 1
All right.
01:42
Speaker 4
I mean, I loved it.
01:43
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:44
Speaker 4
I loved it. I really did.
01:45
Speaker 6
I didn't think, I don't think it's the best movie ever made, but fine. That's the high bar. I laughed out loud as did the packed Mexico City theater audience. A lot of times I thought it was smart. It was funny. I mean, I think there were some scenes that were too long, but I literally think that about every movie now. Like, why are no movies 90 minutes anymore? That's a broader sort of complaint. But yeah, I thought it was funny. And I think thinking back to what the critics were saying about it just being too scoldy and audiences are tired about hearing about how bad rich people are. That to me wasn't the movie. The movie was about... our, the world's reaction to these people and to what's going on and our, our, our ability and our need to normalize stuff that is not normal, you know? And so I just thought, I thought it was, I thought it worked really well. I thought it was beautifully shot.
02:41
Speaker 4
I mean, it was really beautiful. I thought so too.
02:44
Speaker 1
I was like, this is so pretty because it's Iñárritu, right? This is like a very creative Mexican director who's done some very cool movies throughout his career.
02:54
Speaker 6
Iñárritu was working with his like, you know, top Mexican team of like director of photography, like his visuals people, which gave it very much his style. I felt like the color palette was incredible. Like, you know, the whole scene at the European Parliament just.
03:09
Speaker 4
Sort of being like this.
03:12
Speaker 1
Oh my God.
03:13
Speaker 4
Anyway, for me, B plus. Old school grading, B plus.
03:18
Speaker 3
Okay.
03:18
Speaker 5
All right.
03:19
Speaker 2
Aline, what'd you think?
03:21
Speaker 3
I mean, I loved it too. And I really didn't expect to.
03:24
Speaker 5
Wow.
03:25
Speaker 2
Wow.
03:25
Speaker 3
I mean, It's possible. You know, I have a little hater in my soul.
03:31
Speaker 7
And so the fact that so many people hated it so much might have primed me to like it.
03:38
Speaker 5
Yes.
03:38
Speaker 3
But also the.
03:40
Speaker 7
Little hater in my soul, like I thought it was like, I thought it was super cynical and I feel super cynical and I don't, you know, I feel like people were complaining about how like ugly and obnoxious the characters were, but it's like, Like.
03:56
Speaker 3
Look around us right now.
03:57
Speaker 7
You know, things like we're dealing with cartoon characters and they almost have to be a sort of like cartoonish level of grotesque to outmatch what we've already got.
04:09
Speaker 4
Well, I was like, hmm. I can think of a lot worse people in real life. That's funny to me.
04:16
Speaker 3
So I like made a conscious.
04:18
Speaker 1
Decision to not read any reviews or, and like, I tried as much as I could to stay away even from like social media discourse on it before I watched. Cause I didn't even read the synopsis. I was like, I just want to go in cold and like, see what I think. And, um, And then I read stuff afterwards and I was like, oh, that's so funny that people thought that like that character was so over the top or this or that. I mean, he was a little, but I was like, I feel like I've seen characters like that in every Tyler Sheridan show.
04:48
Speaker 2
Right?
04:51
Speaker 3
You know, like I, I don't know. I'm like, how is this different?
04:54
Speaker 1
Especially like a lot of the talking points and stuff were similar to like what you'll hear in Landman or.
05:02
Speaker 3
Yeah, totally.
05:02
Speaker 2
I don't know.
05:03
Speaker 3
Like, yeah.
05:05
Speaker 4
Or on Twitter by Elon Musk. I mean, literally. Totally.
05:10
Speaker 6
He didn't say anything that I hadn't heard before from these crazy fucking tech bros that want to live forever and want their cat.
05:16
Speaker 4
Do you know what I mean? It's like, it didn't seem outlandish to me.
05:20
Speaker 3
I did.
05:20
Speaker 5
Okay.
05:20
Speaker 1
So there's like, we're going to have some spoilers in this. So if you, this is a good point to say that if you have not seen Digger and you want to, Maybe pause the episode and go watch it and then come back and listen to the rest.
05:34
Speaker 3
Because let's talk about the cat. Because it starts like the... Vital. What did you, okay, wait, Amy, I want to talk about the cat, but did you love it? Hate it? In between? I want your overall picture first. I think I'm like in the B plus too.
05:52
Speaker 1
I thought it was really like the, I thought I really liked how, I don't know. I just, I felt like it was like Mexican surrealism. The, like the way it looked the whole time, which I really loved. I actually was like, there were a few moments where I did think it was like, you know, like a little bit ham-fisted where it could have been subtle. But I also find Tom Cruise very annoying in general in every movie. And I was thinking about like before we watched it, Aline was like, I just hope that Tom Cruise ends up like jumping around and doing weird acrobatics.
06:26
Speaker 2
And if he did, he did not disappoint on that.
06:29
Speaker 3
Yes.
06:31
Speaker 6
I mean, I'm no Tom Cruise fan apart from Cocktail, which I loved when I was a teenager. I've never liked a Tom Cruise performance since.
06:41
Speaker 4
I thought he was excellent.
06:42
Speaker 6
I honestly did because I think it actually for him and his need to be like the center of everything and every second actually worked.
06:50
Speaker 4
It kind of fit.
06:51
Speaker 1
I know.
06:52
Speaker 3
It did kind of fit.
06:53
Speaker 1
It also was like one of those movies that like there were things that like I think it was really smart because there were things that like made sense only at the end of the movie, right?
07:03
Speaker 3
Or only like.
07:04
Speaker 1
Halfway through or three quarters. Like the opening, I was like, oh, this is cool. It looks like a, you know, like a stage opening. And then it's like, oh, because so we'll talk about the reveal. What you find out like pretty far into the movie is. is that these people you've been watching are staging a play. So there's this very breaking the fourth wall kind of thing.
07:25
Speaker 3
And you're seeing.
07:33
Speaker 1
All of a sudden, like three different stories unfold where you've got like the play, you've got this weird producer who, I think he was my favorite character actually was.
07:43
Speaker 5
Yeah.
07:44
Speaker 3
What's his name? Jesse Plemons. Yes. God, he was so good.
07:48
Speaker 1
He didn't even have that many lines, but I really liked him as a character. There's one line that he delivers where all the actors and the director are arguing about like how best to tell this story and like, The Tom Cruise character is like, this isn't even true to life.
08:03
Speaker 3
And the director is like, whatever. And I'm like, oh, man, I feel like I've totally seen.
08:08
Speaker 1
And or been a part of those arguments myself. And his whole his point was like, yes, you're all right. And like, it doesn't like it doesn't matter.
08:19
Speaker 6
Yeah.
08:21
Speaker 7
Well, OK, so my theory is that Iñárritu was like making this movie for what, like a decade or something? And he must have been bombarded with the type of like climate narrative disputes that we have all heard a million times that are utterly disgusting. exhausting yeah and also this like sort of policing about how the story should be told and like what kind of story is gonna like spur action and oh my god we need Hollywood to do more climate narratives and I'm sure he was just like completely immersed in this and at a certain point it's like okay but this is like farcical the idea that that making this movie is gonna be what like changes people's minds about the climate and like saves the world like No, it's just not. And like, so part of my exhaustion coming into the movie is like, okay, I'm watching this.
09:18
Speaker 3
I'm watching a climate movie.
09:19
Speaker 7
Like, despite being a climate reporter, I'm like, okay, we're doing this thing. Then when it's like, okay, no, we're stepping back and we're like reflecting on the limitations to narrative.
09:34
Speaker 3
That was interesting to me, you know?
09:36
Speaker 5
Yeah.
09:38
Speaker 7
And like, you know, I think this is the climate crisis and the way things are unfolding. It is like there is a narrative war going on. But I feel like in the end, this movie was about, OK, what happens when there's no like we're already there, you know, which you could say we already are, you know, like at the end. the breakdown has already happened. The movie is only, you know, the movie is just helping people like process their feelings.
10:09
Speaker 5
Yeah.
10:10
Speaker 3
Yeah.
10:11
Speaker 1
Yeah.
10:11
Speaker 6
I mean, I mean, to me, that was, that was the vehicle of it, right? That Actually, what we're now experiencing is a fucking farce that we've allowed this to happen and that we're here is the farce, right? Like we've just sort of, we've just, you know, every day just got a little bit more normalised to like what's going on and just been like, oh. A massive glacier has broken off the coast of Nepal and like thousands of people are worried.
10:36
Speaker 4
Oh, okay, next day, let's talk about something else.
10:39
Speaker 6
I mean, it is farcical and like that we've allowed that to happen.
10:42
Speaker 4
And I think that's what he just leans into.
10:44
Speaker 6
I went with like, oh God, you know, as a climate reporter, it's the last thing I want to do in my spare time.
10:49
Speaker 3
I just thought it was excellent.
10:51
Speaker 4
I just thought it was an excellent movie, right?
10:53
Speaker 6
My favourite character was, well, I love, Riz Ahmed is one of my favourite British actors, you know.
10:58
Speaker 4
He was so good at that.
11:00
Speaker 6
Yes oh my god it was so good like you know um and um that scene when that army general the chief of staff he was like no but where are you really from no no no america boston no but really where are you really from like i was just like yeah that was that was a good hit on the nose.
11:16
Speaker 1
Yeah he was yeah he was great um i realized that we started talking about the cat and then um And then shifted gears.
11:25
Speaker 3
But I do think one of the reasons... Okay, so this is like this.
11:29
Speaker 1
Very farcical thing where this old oil tycoon... has this cat that he's been like keeping alive in various ways for, you know, way past the length of a normal cat's life.
11:40
Speaker 3
I think it's supposed to be like 30 years old or something.
11:42
Speaker 7
34.
11:43
Speaker 4
34.
11:43
Speaker 3
Yeah. And it's clear.
11:45
Speaker 4
I think it was 34.
11:45
Speaker 3
It's like half dead.
11:47
Speaker 1
And it's like this very obvious, like animatronic cat too.
11:51
Speaker 3
So it's like, it's ridiculous, but I think it's like a good, I don't know.
11:55
Speaker 1
I was like, like later kind of chuckling that I'm like, oh yeah, like it's, Again, like another example of like not dealing with reality, you know, like just being and thinking like that character in particular is so like I can bend reality to my will. And like he really keeps believing that right up until the end when he's like thinks that he's just, you know, magicked up.
12:20
Speaker 2
Food in the fridge for everyone. And, you know, he hasn't, but like, he.
12:25
Speaker 3
Really believes in like his power.
12:27
Speaker 1
To do that, which I like, you totally meet people like that. I mean, the tech bros are all like that, you know?
12:33
Speaker 5
Yeah.
12:34
Speaker 4
I mean, and that's, and that's the point.
12:35
Speaker 6
It's like, you're just, yes, there's a sort of, um, you know, the magical you know, reality of it all, but also the fact that, you know, the key villains that are doing their, you know, like extracting all the wealth and ruining the planet are counting on the fact that they'll be still living in their bunkers with their families and their friends, right?
12:55
Speaker 4
When we're all fucked and we're all gone, you know?
12:57
Speaker 6
So I think it was like, both worked as a metaphor, but also just, actually, this is exactly what they're doing.
13:03
Speaker 4
Like, They can't, you know, nose.
13:05
Speaker 1
Well, and in a way like that ends up kind of being true, right? Because like the producer guy who's seems like he's doing fine while everyone else is struggling is like the grandson of.
13:19
Speaker 2
The oil tycoon. Right, right.
13:22
Speaker 5
Well.
13:23
Speaker 7
And like, you know, coming back to the kind of cynicism of the movie and again, speaking to my own cynicism. Look, like I think climate accountability journalism is really important.
13:35
Speaker 3
That's what we're all here for. Yeah.
13:37
Speaker 7
But at the end of the play. The, you know, oil billionaire is off at sea. He's been abandoned. Like, everyone hates him. And he, like, he commits suicide. You know, his life is ended. The audience, like, laughs as they watch him, like, slowly drown in the sea.
13:56
Speaker 5
And cheers.
13:58
Speaker 7
But like, so in a way, it's like a fantasy of accountability. Like he got his, but at the end of the movie, everybody like walks out and has to put on their like nuclear gas masks. And to your point, the grandson of the oil billionaire is actually funding the play.
14:22
Speaker 3
Yeah.
14:23
Speaker 6
To me, the ending was like, the cherry on top of the cake, right? Because I thought it was brilliant because first of all, you have this standing ovation, right? And we can talk about how we've seen this in relation to Palestine, for example, crowds at film festivals, standing up and cheering a film about an existential, you know, the climate crisis, the genocide or whatever. And then they go out and everything's back to normal, right? And so, you know, that play was like, it was a celebration of the 25th anniversary of a cult play. So 25 years have passed, that whole audience is upstanding. And then they put on, you know, they go out into this dystopian sort of environment. And I'm like, that's literally what we're doing right now. Like, you know, we cheer. we're cheering about like, you know, we celebrate amazing pieces of art, which we should about something can yet, you know, he was saying, is anything going to change?
15:16
Speaker 4
Probably not.
15:17
Speaker 6
You know, I think he was a recognition by, by, you know, that actually, you know, people are just going to get back on with their lives, whether they like this or not.
15:25
Speaker 5
Yeah. Yeah.
15:26
Speaker 3
I know I had heard like some people had.
15:30
Speaker 1
Complained about the fact that like, there's this, this scene where he's like speaking, in the European parliament.
15:39
Speaker 5
Right.
15:39
Speaker 3
Which I thought was excellent. Like so well done.
15:42
Speaker 1
And I saw some people criticizing it saying, you know, Oh, like it went the direction of land man where it like had this guy, you know, saying like, well, you all need oil and gas and dah, dah, dah, dah. And I'm like, I don't, I mean, to me, it was very clear that like that was being said in a very cynical way and that it was, you know, not trying to actually sell the audience like.
16:07
Speaker 3
Of Iñárritu' s movie on that point. Like to me, that was super clear. Totally agree.
16:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, I was.
16:15
Speaker 5
Yeah.
16:15
Speaker 7
I was confused about those those reviews are like, oh, it's so scolding.
16:20
Speaker 3
It was like, but that and it was mostly focused on that scene.
16:23
Speaker 7
It was like, no, but that is literally the narrative of the industry that it's all like consumers demand that's driving this.
16:31
Speaker 5
Yeah.
16:31
Speaker 4
But it actually drove home a key point.
16:34
Speaker 6
I think that actually when we're talking about accountability, in that scene, it's specifically pointing the finger at our elected officials and the role they play, right?
16:44
Speaker 4
That was so good, I thought.
16:46
Speaker 3
Yeah.
16:46
Speaker 1
Because he's like, look, all of you have enabled this too.
16:50
Speaker 5
Yeah.
16:52
Speaker 4
Well, I mean, they are the enablers, right?
16:54
Speaker 6
I mean, there's many enablers around why we're in, but no one more than our political leaders, our elected officials, you know? And I thought that was, to me, the point of that scene. I did think it went on a bit too long, that particular scene.
17:06
Speaker 3
I did feel that way. Okay, we get it, director.
17:09
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:10
Speaker 7
Also, one other thought about Tom Cruise in this role. I actually loved that he was cast for this. Not only I think he, you know, played the role well, but also he is this like dark figure of I watched Going Clear this weekend.
17:25
Speaker 3
Oh, that's a good double header.
17:29
Speaker 7
Yeah this man is being controlled by this weirdo cult that's like torturing people and um i thought like that just kind of added to i don't know that this was the intent but like this commentary about it all being so rotten to the core um the fact that he would be the main character.
17:48
Speaker 3
Felt like perfect to me i was like yes.
17:50
Speaker 1
Yeah like this was very on the nose that like um shortly before it ended, my phone and everyone else's phone in the, I saw it in Valencia, was like, whoop, whoop, with like an alert for flooding in Valencia.
18:09
Speaker 3
I was like, perfect.
18:10
Speaker 4
Yeah, spot on.
18:11
Speaker 3
Two on the nose. Yeah, yeah.
18:15
Speaker 7
Yeah.
18:15
Speaker 4
Everybody was like, oh my God, oh my God.
18:19
Speaker 7
Yeah.
18:38
Speaker 6
This is like the first like big climate sort of you know hollywood movie i've seen since um adam mckay's don't look back and i was just reading again the review i wrote for that you know back back then um i i i thought This was much better.
18:54
Speaker 4
Like I really did. I thought, you know, Digger was much better. I thought it was smarter.
18:58
Speaker 6
I think it was sort of, yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't as trying as hard.
19:03
Speaker 3
In some ways.
19:04
Speaker 6
I mean, I just thought we made it a better movie generally. Like, what did you guys think?
19:10
Speaker 3
I felt Don't Look Up up back.
19:13
Speaker 4
Is it Don't Look Up?
19:14
Speaker 5
Yeah.
19:15
Speaker 3
Don't Look Back. Close enough. We get the point.
19:18
Speaker 4
It's like that Oasis song. It's like the Oasis song. Keep that in your head. Yes.
19:24
Speaker 7
I thought the thing about Don't Look Up is like it just it feels much more earnest to me.
19:28
Speaker 3
I think for that moment, maybe it made sense.
19:31
Speaker 7
And I don't think it was a bad movie necessarily.
19:34
Speaker 3
But no, it wasn't bad. Resonated with me much more. Do you know what's.
19:38
Speaker 1
Funny is that I feel like I feel like a lot of people took this earnestly when it wasn't meant that way.
19:47
Speaker 3
Yes, totally. Totally.
19:49
Speaker 1
I was like, oh, that's like, you guys missed the joke. Like he was making fun of what you're like. You thought he was like trying to do the thing that actually.
19:57
Speaker 2
He was making fun of.
19:58
Speaker 5
Yeah.
19:59
Speaker 4
It was so funny.
20:00
Speaker 6
Yeah.
20:00
Speaker 5
Yeah. It was so funny.
20:02
Speaker 6
And I think Don't Look Up, I think you're right, Aline, it was like maybe the movie for the moment. And that, and you know, just, That was also panned by critics, but did really well at the box office. It was a Netflix movie, right? And it was like the third biggest, you know, most watched movie in Netflix history at the time. I think looking back at it now, you can see that a climate or accountability reporter was part of that movie making.
20:26
Speaker 4
Do you know what I mean? Like I think, you know, you really can.
20:30
Speaker 6
And I think that, I mean, I'm sure they had consultants that were climate experts and stuff in Digger, but I feel like... It just felt like a movie to me. And movies, I mean, movies, it's.
20:41
Speaker 4
The entertainment business. They have to be entertaining, right?
20:44
Speaker 3
Like, you know, whatever. It was so creative.
20:46
Speaker 2
I just thought it was really creative.
20:48
Speaker 1
So actually, okay, Adam McKay, this is like part of why I was like, oh, we should see this movie and talk about it. he on social media was like pissed that people, you know, were criticizing this movie. And like one of the things he said, so I'm curious what you guys think about this as just like an operating theory in general. He kind of intimated that like if you care about climate and if you want to see like climate make its way into more culture, like TV and film and whatever, that you should support like climate films when they come out, you know, he was kind of, it was a little bit like, why didn't people show up for this movie?
21:29
Speaker 3
Cause this movie was wildly expensive, right? It took 10 years.
21:32
Speaker 6
It was $ 200 million.
21:35
Speaker 1
And I think the first weekend at the box office, it cleared like 9 million, which is really bad for a film of that size, starring Tom Cruise, all of that.
21:44
Speaker 5
Right.
21:45
Speaker 3
Um, so he was kind of like, Oh, all.
21:48
Speaker 1
These like you know, armchair critics are like panning this movie and they don't get it. And also like people should show up to support stuff like this. And, and kind of like, because it is true. Like, I think this happened when, I don't know if you guys watched the Apple show extrapolations when it came out.
22:04
Speaker 3
Oh, I really didn't like it.
22:06
Speaker 4
I'm sorry.
22:08
Speaker 3
OK, I'm like, should I?
22:09
Speaker 1
Hashtag sorry to all the people who made it. But it was a similar kind of thing where it had this massive budget and had so many famous people.
22:15
Speaker 3
And it was like Meryl Streep.
22:17
Speaker 1
And I mean, just like so every famous person had, you know, was in one of these episodes and it just didn't do well.
22:25
Speaker 3
And so for a good couple of years after that.
22:28
Speaker 1
All the studios were like, nobody wants to see these shows and films, right? And so I think the concern is that that will happen again because this film didn't do well. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know what you guys think about that. I mean, I think we should support people's efforts. Do you know what I mean?
22:48
Speaker 6
I mean, culture and artists have always, there's always been artists that have responded to different types of challenges and social injustices, things they see around them in the world, right?
22:59
Speaker 4
And others that haven't, you know? So, and we want that, right?
23:02
Speaker 6
We want, you know, we want our authors and painters and musicians and filmmakers, right, to respond to that.
23:09
Speaker 1
But....
23:11
Speaker 6
There is a difference between that and supporting and encouraging that and saying we have to like everything because, you know, I come back to the point.
23:18
Speaker 4
It's got to be entertaining, right?
23:20
Speaker 6
You know, Aline and I went to see Neil Young on Long Island last year.
23:24
Speaker 1
Yes.
23:26
Speaker 6
I love the ultimate protest artist who, by the way, said Digger was the best film he's ever seen.
23:34
Speaker 3
Yes, Neil.
23:35
Speaker 6
But we went to see him after Neil Young had just released his latest album, which was not good.
23:41
Speaker 4
I'm just going to say.
23:44
Speaker 6
Still protesting, still angry, lacking in tunes. But like, you know, me and Ali were quite worried that he was going to play like this whole new album. He didn't. But I was so disappointed he didn't play Let's Roll Again.
23:58
Speaker 5
Yeah.
23:58
Speaker 6
Which is his song about electric vehicles.
24:01
Speaker 4
It's sort of.
24:02
Speaker 6
Like, it adapts the melody of Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land. And it has the classic line, if you're a fascist, then get a Tesla.
24:14
Speaker 4
It's so good. It's so good.
24:16
Speaker 3
Oh my God.
24:17
Speaker 4
Incredible. It's so good. It's such an anthem and he didn't play it.
24:21
Speaker 3
We were gutted.
24:22
Speaker 4
But you know that, for example, when he wrote that.
24:24
Speaker 6
Song, but also a couple of years before that, he'd written a song called Big Crime about Trump They were subjectively not very good songs, but they make, you know, because it's Neil Young and he was like reacting to injustices and things that are going on. He didn't just make the news. He didn't just make the Guardian and LA Times, et cetera. He was, you know, big story in variety, Rolling Stone, NME, you know, and it's like, that has to be a good thing, right? Like you're trying to engage people in something. You're not just going to do it through documentaries and news, right?
24:55
Speaker 4
Like, and so, yeah, I don't know.
24:57
Speaker 1
Yeah.
24:57
Speaker 4
Yeah.
24:58
Speaker 1
Yeah.
24:59
Speaker 7
Yeah, I think, I mean, this idea that you should go see a climate movie just because it's a climate movie. I mean, I actually like Digger, so I think people should see it because it's... Interesting. And but if it was a bad movie, if there wasn't anything interesting happening there, I don't personally feel like I would have any obligation to go see it. If if the if the only point in doing a movie that has a climate narrative is that you want it to like be a blockbuster hit, like at what point are we starting to like be talking about propaganda? You know, where's the line there?
25:40
Speaker 3
Yeah, I don't want to walk. I mean, that's not interesting to me.
25:44
Speaker 7
Like if it's like art about if it's art about the climate crisis and it makes me think about it in a new in a new way, I'm.
25:53
Speaker 3
Interested in that.
25:54
Speaker 6
Yeah.
25:55
Speaker 7
I do think music is a little different because there is something inherently cathartic about listening to even like goofy ass political music. Like I'm from Minneapolis, the Bruce Springsteen Streets of Minneapolis song. I personally think it is quite corny, but I love to walk around being like.
26:17
Speaker 3
In the streets of Minneapolis.
26:20
Speaker 6
Yeah.
26:21
Speaker 3
It makes me feel good.
26:22
Speaker 7
So I think there's something different about music and the value that that has where it comes to movement stuff.
26:30
Speaker 3
But yeah, I don't know. What do you think, Amy? I don't know.
26:34
Speaker 1
I'm really torn between the idea of this as like a movement. like a solidarity move, you know, of like, all right, I'm going to like give it a shot because there isn't a lot of this stuff getting made. And like, I do want there to be enough of a variety that there can be like a spectrum, like almost every other, I mean, we have how many like documentaries about fraudulent tech people at the moment?
26:59
Speaker 3
Like, Oh my God.
27:00
Speaker 2
Seriously.
27:01
Speaker 5
Yeah.
27:01
Speaker 1
Many. So I'm, I'm like annoyed that there isn't more, but I also like, I just don't love the idea of like, um, I sort of chafe at it, but at the same time I'm like, well, the only reason that that conversation is even happening is that like, there's so few of these things getting made that like every one that doesn't do well gets held up as the reason for like five more not to get made, you know?
27:30
Speaker 6
Um, I mean, I do think there's a difference though between like the creative process and creating art and solidarity, right?
27:41
Speaker 4
Like I think, you know, like.
27:43
Speaker 6
Expecting our artists to express and show solidarity. And I think, you know, I think Palestine's a really good example of this because it's, you know, it's taken 70 plus years and a genocide, but now it is completely unacceptable for anyone, any artist in any genre.
28:01
Speaker 4
To, to be silent on Palestine, right?
28:04
Speaker 6
And I think, you know, and, And, you know, are we going to get to the point where, you know, climate change, which is like the existential threat to the whole planet, becomes that issue? Like we're a long, long way from that, you know. But I do think Palestine is an interesting example.
28:17
Speaker 4
I mean, like, you know. That's an interesting way to think about it.
28:20
Speaker 3
Yeah.
28:21
Speaker 6
Yeah.
28:21
Speaker 3
Sorry, you were saying kneecap?
28:23
Speaker 4
No, I just said, yeah, kneecap.
28:25
Speaker 6
A group that started out with really about, you know, revitalizing or reclaiming the Irish language and talking about British colonialism. and have become incredibly important spokespeople in Palestine. I mean, one of the group members was charged under the Terrorism Act in the UK, you know, and then actually they were in Mexico City last week playing and they were interviewed by Chilango Radio. And it was super interesting because he asked them that you've traveled to all these different places in the world, like what place have you liked best?
28:53
Speaker 4
What have you learned?
28:54
Speaker 6
And their answer was actually about how much they've learned from indigenous people and First Nations people around the world. And they talk just in quite a clumsy way, but he talked about, you know, indigenous people and natural resources and how climate change is making that much harder. And I just thought this is a huge step, right? That is about actually him, someone, a group that is hugely influential right now, making connections between colonialism and what's happening in Ireland and Palestine today.
29:24
Speaker 4
With natural resources and climate change.
29:27
Speaker 6
And it is a step-by-step process. And I think that, you know, we want more from that, from our culture. We want, you know, we want art to be inspired by climate change and climate, whatever, like, you know, village.
29:40
Speaker 4
Or whatever.
29:41
Speaker 6
But the solidarity, I think, is really important as well. Yeah.
29:46
Speaker 1
I want to ask each of you if there is a piece of content, either about climate or, like, another sort of, like, social justice or, like, socially aware piece you know, movie or film or song or whatever that you like genuinely like and recommend and like, you know, would tell people to go and check out?
30:08
Speaker 3
Well, there's so many good movies out right now.
30:10
Speaker 7
And so I'll just go with a couple that I saw recently over this very weekend. So one was History of Concrete, the John Wilson documentary.
30:23
Speaker 3
I really want to see it.
30:24
Speaker 6
Yes.
30:25
Speaker 5
Okay.
30:26
Speaker 2
Here's what I will say.
30:27
Speaker 3
I will say it's, It's about concrete. Concrete.
30:30
Speaker 7
And this is one that I have to, I'm sorry, John Wilson, I think this could have been a little shorter.
30:36
Speaker 3
There was a point where I'm like, okay, I get it. I get it. Concrete.
30:40
Speaker 5
Wow.
30:41
Speaker 1
Yeah.
30:42
Speaker 7
But then like there's some twists and turns and it becomes like really hilarious.
30:46
Speaker 3
Like, you know, you ultimately get to that like.
30:49
Speaker 7
For people who watched How To with John Wilson, you meet these characters that take these turns that you really don't expect.
30:57
Speaker 3
And I have to say, it's not on.
30:59
Speaker 7
Its face an environmental movie, but Making Concrete is... One of the biggest contributors to, you know, carbon emissions.
31:08
Speaker 4
And water shortages.
31:10
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's terrible for the environment.
31:12
Speaker 7
And like, you know, the story of concrete really starts with John Wilson's basement flooding all the time.
31:21
Speaker 3
Interesting. So there's like ways that it comes in.
31:25
Speaker 1
Yeah.
31:25
Speaker 7
And like the environmental impact of like the dust for concrete recycling is comes into the narrative.
31:33
Speaker 3
And it like it just kind of keeps creeping.
31:34
Speaker 7
These environmental questions keep kind of like popping up, but not in a like super in your face way.
31:41
Speaker 3
But in this way, again, that.
31:42
Speaker 7
Feels very like how to with John Wilson, where it kind of like changed the way I see the city.
31:47
Speaker 3
Now I'm like, oh, concrete everywhere. It's just like ruining the world. It's just going to fall apart. And also like.
31:53
Speaker 7
All those little dots all over the place are gum. And I didn't want to know that. It's really gross. The other one that I saw, another documentary that hopefully will have wider distribution at some point, but it's this film called The Great Experiment. And it's these two filmmakers, Steve Ming and Eric Metzger. Um, it's really about like the four Trump's first four years in office. And it's kind of like they're traveling around the U S it's in black and white.
32:26
Speaker 3
It's very beautifully shot.
32:28
Speaker 7
And, um, it's just like kind of, uh, filming people from both sides of this, like polarized United States, um, Of that era, which now feels sort of like vintage. And I'm like, it was like a weird kind of like trauma slash nostalgia slash wasn't that quaint.
32:48
Speaker 5
But yeah.
32:49
Speaker 3
And again, like climate change is not necessarily at the center, but there's this really....
32:54
Speaker 7
They do a good job of sort of humanizing people on either end of the spectrum. So there's this like protest scene where these Antifa kids like run into each other and then they're just like chit-chatting and you're like, oh, you guys are just like kids.
33:08
Speaker 3
Normal kids.
33:09
Speaker 7
You know, just the way that they're interacting is really kind of endearing. And, you know, but one of them goes on a rant about the climate crisis. And I was like, wow, this is very accurate.
33:18
Speaker 5
Yeah.
33:23
Speaker 3
Okay, I want to say something about Armageddon. Okay. And then I want to hear what other people.
33:27
Speaker 7
Have to say.
33:27
Speaker 3
The movie Armageddon starring Ben Affleck? Yes, the movie Armageddon.
33:30
Speaker 5
Okay.
33:30
Speaker 3
Yes, starring Ben Affleck, who enjoyed Digger, I hear. Oh, interesting.
33:36
Speaker 5
Okay.
33:36
Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
33:37
Speaker 7
OK, I don't know if you guys have seen that movie recently.
33:39
Speaker 3
I was sick and I had norovirus.
33:42
Speaker 7
And so I was like deeply ill watching Armageddon on TV in a hotel room. And I did not realize what a like win that must have been for the oil industry.
33:56
Speaker 3
You know, like these oil drillers. go to an.
34:00
Speaker 7
Asteroid and save the earth by drilling into the ass. Like, and I don't think, I don't know that there was industry funding for that. But in that moment in time, the makers of that movie were like, this is what will resonate with America. And I don't think that that would be made in the same way now. Or if it was, it would be like, clearly with an idea of appealing to a certain set of the population. Like to me watching that, I'm like, I think things have changed a little bit where I don't know that that would have, because that wasn't, I don't think anyone saw that and was like, wow, this is so political. But like watching it now, I'm like, it kind of is.
34:39
Speaker 4
What year was that? What year did that come out?
34:43
Speaker 3
I don't remember. I can look it up right now.
34:46
Speaker 6
I've never seen it, but I bet you one of Drilled's very smart listeners will know whether there was fossil fuel funding in.
34:53
Speaker 3
That or not.
34:53
Speaker 1
We're going to get an email.
34:55
Speaker 4
So please, write in and tell us. Just save us some Googling.
35:00
Speaker 3
1998, that was the year.
35:01
Speaker 1
Oh, wow.
35:02
Speaker 3
So right after Kyoto, of course there was oil money. Yeah, maybe so. We need to do an investigation, perhaps. Oh my God. Yes.
35:13
Speaker 1
I had never thought about it, but you're right.
35:15
Speaker 3
We got to revisit the movie Armageddon in that context.
35:18
Speaker 5
Yeah.
35:18
Speaker 3
That's so funny. All right, Nina, do you have any?
35:23
Speaker 6
Yeah, I'm going to just mention a couple of movies on Palestine because everyone's talking about Naza.
35:29
Speaker 3
I'm going to go see it on Wednesday, I think. Yeah, I'm excited.
35:34
Speaker 4
Take a handkerchief.
35:36
Speaker 6
I mean, two movies that I think didn't get the same attention but should have. No Other Land, which actually I saw with Aline when we were neighbours.
35:46
Speaker 4
And that is a documentary.
35:48
Speaker 6
And it's not, I mean, it's not about the climate crisis, but it absolutely is. It's on the, you know, it's about Israel's ecocide and environmental destruction of the occupied West Bank, which was brilliant. And the voice of Hind Rajab, which was a dramatization of the real life events of a little five-year-old Hind Rajab who was murdered by Israel.
36:10
Speaker 4
And it was.
36:11
Speaker 6
I mean, both of them were brilliant films, are brilliant films, and people should go and see them.
36:17
Speaker 4
And just one old school recommendation.
36:20
Speaker 6
I'm actually reading right now the autobiography of Sinead O'Connor, the fantastic Irish singer. And she, I mean, she wrote a lot of, she often wrote songs that, music that was, you know, like, you know, a reaction to what was going on. And she has a Beautiful song called Black Boys on Mopeds. And it was a story of these black boys that were killed by police in the UK during the Thatcher administration. And it's just a beautiful song. Yeah, everyone should listen to it.
36:51
Speaker 1
Fun fact, the song Nothing Compares to You is actually a ballad to Mother Earth.
36:56
Speaker 3
I'm totally kidding. I'm totally kidding. It's not. I'm pretty sure Prince wrote that, I will say, though.
37:02
Speaker 4
It's a Prince song.
37:03
Speaker 3
Minneapolis connection here. But it is my karaoke song, and that is true. What about you, Amy?
37:08
Speaker 1
Mine is actually a climate show, and I keep talking about it to everyone because... Very few people have seen it, but I think it's so fucking good. Just dealing with my cat here.
37:24
Speaker 4
How old is she?
37:25
Speaker 5
32?
37:25
Speaker 2
She's 32 and she's still going strong.
37:30
Speaker 1
It's called Families Like Ours and it's by this Danish filmmaker.
37:36
Speaker 3
Actually, like he was.
37:37
Speaker 1
I don't know if you guys were film nerds in the early 2000s, but.
37:43
Speaker 1
There was this group of filmmakers called the Dogma Filmmakers. It was like Lars von Trier and I don't know. They were all like, we're going to not use CGI and we're going to like, you know, only shoot on real film and all of that kind of thing. And this guy was one of them. And he made one of my all time favorite movies. It's called The Celebration. It's about a very dysfunctional family, like getting together for, you know, the patriarch's birthday or whatever.
38:11
Speaker 3
Anyway.
38:13
Speaker 1
This show is like in the first two minutes, you learn that like the basic premise is that the country of Denmark has decided that rather than continue to spend money on building up sea walls and stuff, they're going to just use all of the money left in their coffers to like re like rehouse everyone in other places and like shut down the country. And so the whole Like it's a whole like family drama and there's all this stuff going on. But the backdrop is that they are climate refugees, but they're like rich white European climate refugees, which is like not what we're used to seeing.
38:48
Speaker 3
And it's I think it's like.
38:51
Speaker 1
Maybe one of the smartest climate things i've seen i'm like wow this person like really knew what they were talking about in a way that like allowed it to be very detailed but not be like the central thing that's being talked about you know what i mean it's like just it's actually like i keep thinking about it in the context of nina's series it's coming out next month because it's all about displacement and also yeah like it really had me thinking about like who we tend to see in those roles on TV and who we don't. um yeah like I yeah it's highly recommend it's good yeah.
39:29
Speaker 6
You know, yes, it's really important for us to sort of be highlighting and telling the stories of people from like, you know, from really vulnerable communities who are at the forefront.
39:39
Speaker 4
Of climate change.
39:40
Speaker 6
But we can't, you know, telling, you know, making it out that climate refugees are all brown and black people and the same victims that everyone can just turn their, close their eyes to because it's not them.
39:51
Speaker 1
It's just sad that those people have to deal with that, right? Like that's, that is like a thing that people do. So yeah. Yeah.
39:58
Speaker 3
I thought it was, It was really smart.
40:00
Speaker 1
I think these are my favorite kinds of shows is when you can tell that like someone in the writing room had like a huge level of detailed knowledge about something. Like this is why I thought Silicon Valley was good is like they clearly had people who like really knew that community. And so the jokes were so specific that they worked really well. And that's like, I think this show is like that too.
40:21
Speaker 4
That's the geek in you, Amy. Yeah, it is. Yeah, that's the geek in you.
40:24
Speaker 5
Yes.
40:24
Speaker 7
Yeah.
40:28
Speaker 3
Anyway. All right.
40:29
Speaker 4
Well, this has been fun.
40:32
Speaker 1
I would say send us an email if you have a show or a movie that you want to suggest, because I feel like we're going to do more of this. It's fun.
40:42
Speaker 3
Stick around.
40:42
Speaker 1
After the break, a conversation with Diana Tarimwa Karakire. about the reporting she's been doing for us the past year on the ECOP project in Uganda and Tanzania and her experience creating a publication focused on Indigenous rights throughout Africa. Diana is based in Uganda and there's been quite an increase in cracking down on protest against the project there and even on journalism covering the project. So we talked a little bit about that too. That's all coming up after this quick break.
41:35
Speaker 5
My name is Dana Tarimwa Karachide. I'm a journalist based in Uganda. I do report about oil and gas and basically energy and human rights and climate environment, yes, and indigenous peoples. So I do freelance work for different publications. I'm currently a reporter with Drilled, but I also own a Pan-African digital magazine called Indigenous Times, where we do amplify issues of Indigenous people in Africa.
42:20
Speaker 1
You've reported on some of the things that the government has done around repressing.
42:27
Speaker 2
Protests against ECOP.
42:29
Speaker 1
But, you know, we hear stories about them not being so happy about journalism that's critical of that project either. So how has that been for you?
42:39
Speaker 5
Yes, that's true. There's generally been a lot of threats and intimidation generally around environmental defenders, including us journalists that do reporting. around environmental issues. In particular, we've also seen curbing down on protests around E-Corp. We've also seen threats and closure of non-governmental organizations that are working on oil and gas issues. And so that has created a lot of tension. And as a journalist who who's reporting around these issues, it has made me a bit more security conscious, but also being able to get sources to speak to around these issues has also become a little harder because people don't want to speak. People don't want to speak out about these issues. So they also don't want to expose themselves. So that has been, it's been a bit challenging that way.
43:52
Speaker 3
Yeah, I bet.
43:54
Speaker 1
How did you first start reporting on oil and gas? What kind of drew you into looking at that?
44:01
Speaker 5
Okay, so I grew up in a household. I grew up around activists who were around environmental activists. Oh, that's cool. taking action around the environment and taking action on climate. So it was constantly in my brain. And so when I go to university, I remember I wanted to choose as a course, but my uncle was like, I think we have too many lawyers. You'd be, I think you're a good storyteller. So you're a good storyteller. So I just went on ahead and did journalism and communications. And so even after journalism and communication, during my internship, he offered me an opportunity to work with him in his organization. So from that time, I got into, because his organization was focused on environment, specifically around renewable energy and oil and gas. So, but it was more, I was doing more communications work for him. So during that time, I kept thinking, I think I can better tell these stories if I go to the communities. And I think the other thing that sort of was a bit unsettling was us going to the communities and preaching about human rights to people who were hungry, people who were who, I mean, they want school fees for their children. So it was a bit unsettling for me. And I was like, how else can I do this work without just preaching about human rights and empowering, which wasn't bad work, but sometimes people are just, I mean, hungry. And then I'd also be aware of the different issues that are affecting these communities. And so... Then I ran back into storytelling from the organization. I went back into journalism, into storytelling because I felt I would do better telling people's stories than just preaching about human rights.
46:36
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.
46:37
Speaker 5
That's so interesting.
46:38
Speaker 1
Okay, I feel like that ties in really well with the work that you've been doing for Drilled, which is really digging into how ECOP, which is this big pipeline that Total Energies is building with the governments of Uganda and Tanzania, across Uganda and parts of Tanzania as well.
46:57
Speaker 3
It's been....
46:59
Speaker 1
Protested kind of all along the way at various points, but you've done all these really interesting stories about the on the ground impact on specific communities that are sort of like along the route of the pipeline. So tell us a little bit about what you found. We'll put links to the stories in the show notes too, but tell us a little bit about how this project is impacting the communities and its path.
47:25
Speaker 5
Yes. So most of my stories have been around Total Energy's Tilinga project and the East African crude oil pipeline project. And the Tilinga project is a bit unique because it's in the middle of Mackenzie Falls National Park, one of Uganda's largest parks. And so my reporting goes beyond the development story that government and oil companies are telling us. So beyond that, what have been the impacts on the communities where these projects are, but also the environment in this community? So some of my findings have been that actually communities think these projects are more of a land grab because they feel they were not, first of all, The projects themselves have violated the principles of free, prior, and informed consent. And communities complain that they didn't understand the magnitude of these projects. And for those whose land was taken, because, I mean, the projects require land to be built. to be built, for the ECOP to be built, and for the Tilinga. It also requires land for the different feeder pipelines that are connecting to the refinery. So the communities feel, first of all, they didn't understand the magnitude of these projects, but they also feel they have not been adequately compensated for their land. And the other challenge is most of this land is communally owned land. And so they're learning. are tied to the land in terms of these are their grazing lands. These are lands where they've buried their people for generations. There's a lot of cultural sacred sites on these lands. And so So that displacement meant that they were supposed to move away from a life they have known all this time. So they feel they were not adequately compensated. They feel they were not adequately consulted in the whole process in the development of these projects. Yeah. Yeah.
49:57
Speaker 1
And how does that contrast with how Total and the government talk about this project?
50:03
Speaker 3
What are the things that they say... are sort of like.
50:08
Speaker 1
Big benefits of this project that it doesn't seem like are getting to the communities.
50:16
Speaker 5
Okay, so Tao is constantly preaching about the jobs that the industry is going to create. But I think even that narrative is tired now because communities actually, members realize that there were just a few projects that were created. for a few people. And some of the people didn't even come from within the local communities in these areas. And so that also has sort of angered the people around these projects. But then also, even the people that were employed in the beginning of these projects have been laid off with time. Because as the projects have proceeded, there have also been massive layoffs. And so it just goes back to what activists have always been saying, that the industry doesn't create as many jobs as the companies have been saying, even as government has been preaching that the jobs are really not as many as they've been projecting. Yeah.
51:30
Speaker 1
You've been reporting on this for a while, so I'm curious to hear your take on like the story that always gets told about these projects is that they will bring money to the economy and development to the country. We talked about the jobs thing. That's another one. What have you seen as like the oh, and that it will provide affordable energy for the country? So what have you seen as like the reality of those promises? Yeah.
52:00
Speaker 5
Okay, so my observation has been, and I mean, I come from my opinions, I informed by the several reports I have been reading, but also the workshops I have attended. And from that, I mean, if there are several reports that say that actually oil and gas, countries that have produced oil and gas in Africa, have not really benefited from this resource. And I say that on ground because, I mean, I have friends that had been employed in this sector and now they are being laid off after all these years. So that in itself points you to the fact that companies are really, they're not interested in leaving any profits behind. for the country. And they're just interested in producing the oil and taking it. Because I remember even our president in the beginning was leaning towards having a refinery in the country. So we produce our oil, refine it here. People get to benefit from it. But the companies actually went ahead and convinced him that it was better to build this gigantic pipeline and take the resource out of the country. So from that, I don't see the benefits trickling down to the common people. But then also, the government has also been involved in several corruption scandals. And I think that's what activists have been saying. If we fail to manage the budget and the little resources we've had as a country, how do we think that government is going to manage all the profits from this resource, the management of funds from this resource? And the opaqueness that also surrounds the proceeds from the sector, but also around the arguments that were signed between government and the companies. Up to now, these have not been disclosed to us. We actually do not know. And civil society has been pushing for the longest time for these to be made public so we know. We also had a scenario where our former minister of finance said that, oh, I actually signed the production sharing agreements without reading through. So what did you sign if you didn't treat? That is on record. It's in the papers. But even our president has come out to explicitly say that oil belongs to me. Oil is my resource. Latin itself is a pointer to are the citizens really going to benefit from this resource? Yeah.
55:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that you reported on that I thought was so interesting was around this idea that Total has been pushing about net biodiversity gain, that because they are going to plant some trees over here, that this impact in Murchison Falls Park is no big deal, don't worry about it. So yeah, I'd love to have you talk about that a little bit, how they frame that.
55:38
Speaker 5
Yes, so... So Total Energies has this program that it calls the Three-Pillar Biodiversity Framework. So Total Energies is operating the Tilinga project inside Maxon Falls National Park. And so under its Three-Pillar Framework, it says that it's going to implement the Non-Ed Biodiversity Loss Framework. So under that, this is what it's doing. So there are going to be translocating some of the wild animals in the park to some other different national parks around the country. And then they're going to be planting trees, but also just around in the same area in the communities, planting trees. But then even those projects have also met sort of local resistance, the tree planting campaign, where communities were saying that the trees.
56:39
Speaker 5
They're introducing a different species, tree species to these areas. Different species to these areas.
56:47
Speaker 1
So they're not planting native trees, they're planting like imported trees.
56:51
Speaker 5
Yes. Wow.
56:52
Speaker 3
Amazing.
56:54
Speaker 5
And so, so, so yeah, so that's what it's been doing. But then also the translocation has also not worked really well because it has also increased the human wildlife conflicts in this area. So because animals are moving away from the noise and the sound and the chaos of the whole project, they're moving further into the community. So they've also increased cases of human wildlife conflicts, but then also the whole exercise of translocation, moving animals from this area to another area, and then you also increased cases of human-wild life conflicts in those other areas where animals are being moved. So it's not really working well, like they claim. But then the other thing that I've also noticed is that the company has been, okay, so they say that they are working with conservation organizations, but to fund a conservation organization, and these are like wildlife conservation organizations, funding them to work with them, conduct this. So it's been also activists have called it the company just trying to buy these conservation organizations because some of them have been critical of their biodiversity framework. So what they do is bring them on board and fund them And so every time I've even approached these organizers and like, oh, we can't talk about what we are doing with Total. Why can't you talk about what you're doing with the company? I mean, these are community projects. Yeah.
58:49
Speaker 7
Yeah.
58:50
Speaker 1
That's super interesting because it's so, we did a big project reporting in Guyana a couple of years ago in South America. And that was an Exxon project, but a very similar approach where like, you know, some of the first things they did in the country was first they they hired a lot of the journalists to do pr for the project and then they funded yeah like any conservation organization that would normally have been critical of that project they like gave a bunch of funding to and then part of their funding agreements was that the conservation organizations had to do like videos.
59:31
Speaker 2
With them to be like, this is so great.
59:35
Speaker 5
Even here, they've been taking lots of photos.
59:38
Speaker 1
Yeah.
59:39
Speaker 5
Yeah. Yeah.
59:41
Speaker 3
That makes sense.
59:42
Speaker 5
Yeah.
59:43
Speaker 3
It's a playbook.
59:45
Speaker 5
Cheers.
59:47
Speaker 1
Okay, I would love to have you talk about your magazine, Indigenous Times. What prompted you to start it and what kinds of things do you guys cover?
59:56
Speaker 3
And we'll put a link to.
59:57
Speaker 1
That in the show notes too so people can find it.
1:00:02
Speaker 5
Okay, so Indigenous Times is a Pan-African magazine where we report and amplify issues of Indigenous people in Africa. So I did some stories around indigenous people in Uganda and those stories overwhelmed me. The level of marginalization of these communities, but also realizing that their issues were being underreported, they were not even receiving the media attention that they deserve. And also realizing that marginalization seeping through into policies and legal frameworks and realizing that some of these communities are actually also not recognized by the state. Some of them remain stateless. And then I also read widely and realized that actually this happens with indigenous people across Africa. And the fact that I also have roots in, in indigenous people from Western Uganda, I realized, okay, this is a very big gap. And, and that's really what prompted me to start this, this media company. And I have for the past few years. So I registered this last year and, but we've been operating for like four years now. Um, But of course, because also registration here takes some time and government has been very careful. Government, in this case, the Uganda Registration Bureau, the one that registers organizations. Somehow, if your organization is going to do work around human rights, so it really takes long or sometimes you're not able to even register it. for as long as you mention something to do with human rights. And so we were only able to get it registered last year, but over the course of the years, I've been trying to bring on board other journalists that I can work with to be able to amplify issues around Indigenous people and their environment, and also not just... Stories that just talk about the marginalization, but also stories that talk about the solutions and how their cultures mesh into environmental protection and conservation. So, yeah, that's about it.
1:02:58
Speaker 3
I'm excited.
1:02:58
Speaker 1
I like I have read a few stories in there already, but I'm excited to read more.
1:03:03
Speaker 3
It's great that you're doing that. OK, awesome.
1:03:06
Speaker 1
Well, thank you so much for taking the time and doing all this great work. And we'll stick links to all of it in the show notes. And yeah, I hope you have a good rest of your day. The Spill is a regularly recurring segment of the Drilled podcast. It comes out every Friday when we're not in the middle of a narrative season. If you have ideas for folks you'd like to see us interview on here, let us know. We're at Drilled Media on all social media platforms, or you can email me at amy at drilled.media. Links to all the stories we mentioned and to pre-order my book are in the show notes. The Spill is produced by Peter Duff. Our theme song is Bird in the Hand by Fournone. Artwork by Matthew Fleming. Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton. of the First Amendment Project. You can find transcripts of the spill online at drilled.media. Like the rest of Drilled, the spill is distributed by Pushkin Industries. The team there is Eric Sandler, Grace Ross, Morgan Ratner, Owen Miller, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, Brian Shreberneck, and Jake Flanagan.
1:04:24
Speaker 5
Bye.
The Host
