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Sukari Hardnett was one of the witnesses who was never called to testify at Clarence Thomas’ confirmation hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee in 1991. She submitted a sworn affidavit to the Committee, describing the sexual harassment she witnessed while working with Thomas at the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. But Hardnett was never contacted by the Committee or its Chair, then-Senator Joe Biden.
Hardnett and Hill speak for the first time about Hardnett’s experience of being excluded from this historic hearing and how that impacted her life and the country.
Anita Hill
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Sukari Hardnett
As a young woman in high school, I was on a bus one day and a group of guys from a high school called Resurrection, it was a Catholic high school, were on the bus and they started singing Glory, Glory Segregation. They're putting all the N word where the white men ought to be. And there was another little girl sitting on the bus and that little girl was getting off the bus, in the back of the bus. And this little girl must have been seven or eight years old, and as she got off the bus, a group of white boys took a big book, like a big biology or chemistry book, and slammed the book into the little girl's face. You could see blood and she was upset and she was afraid. And she ran off the bus. And I panicked, I didn't know what to do, and I thought, I'm next. And I couldn't help the little girl. I was really almost paralyzed. But I always felt guilty that I didn't do something to help that little girl, although realistically, there was really nothing that I could do. But I always felt, in life, whenever opportunities like that came up that I would do the most that I could possibly do.
Anita Hill
That's Sukari Hardnett talking about growing up in New Orleans. Today, she's a civil rights lawyer outside of Washington, DC. I wanted to start with that story because it is at the center of what Hardnett does now. She defends and protects people. She is courageous. Since that day on the bus, she has made it her mission to speak out when she sees injustice. And one of the people she stepped up to defend was me. I'm Anita Hill. This is Getting Even my podcast about equality and what it takes to get there. On this show, I'm talking with trailblazers, people who are working on improving our imperfect world and finding solutions.
In my first episode, I spoke with journalists and commentator Mark Lamont Hill about my thoughts on President Biden's historic announcement of a Black female Supreme Court nominee. In this episode, you're going to hear about another historic Supreme Court nomination hearing, one that took place over 30 years ago, one in which the public heard my testimony and saw the aftermath. This changed the course of my life forever. But in this episode, you're not going to hear about me, you're going to hear about Sukari Hardnett.
In the mid 1980s, Hardnett served as the assistant to the chairman of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, a federal agency in charge of receiving and responding to complaints of job discrimination. Hardnett and I never crossed paths, but we had a boss in common, Clarence Thomas. In 1991, Hardnett submitted a sworn affidavit to the Senate Judiciary Committee outlining Thomas's behavior that she had witnessed at the EEOC. I had held the same position prior to her. She recounted an environment where young Black women were being inspected and auditioned as sexual objects by Thomas. She added "women know when there are sexual dimensions to the attention they are receiving, and there was never any doubt about that dimension in Clarence Thomas's office." Hardnett was one of three witnesses the committee never called to testify, so I decided it was time to give her a call.
Okay, it is recording. Sukari, can you hear me?
Sukari Hardnett
Yes, I can.
Anita Hill
Great.
I am so glad to be having this conversation with you. I have always wanted, not only for myself to hear what you had to say, but I want the world to hear your voice. And I am ever grateful that you came forward. And I feel really fortunate to be able to provide this platform for you to speak today, even though it is 30 years late.
Sukari Hardnett
Well, thank you very much.
Anita Hill
This episode is about the importance of the truth and the price people pay to tell it. Hardnett's commitment to truth telling began well before she went to work at the EEOC.
Sukari Hardnett
My interest in civil rights came from just growing up in New Orleans. I grew up in a very volatile period in New Orleans and being a Black woman and my whole community was Black and I just wanted to see some equity there. So early on, I teamed up with my friends and we would just stage demonstrations. We'd go to theaters and try to integrate. We'd go to lunch counters and we'd try to integrate. We'd ride the buses and sit in the front of the bus to try to integrate, and that really was my lifelong experience.
Anita Hill
So working at the EEOC must have been like reaching a high point in your career since you were interested in civil rights law?
Sukari Hardnett
Well, actually, it was very disappointing. When I got to the Commission, I worked in the Office of Review and Appeals, and we were basically locked in our offices during the day and we were basically not given any training or any support on how to prepare or to do the appeals. And we were discouraged from deciding an appeal in favor of some of the people who filed appeals. So I just felt that it was a dishonest. So I went to the chairman's office to say, thank you for hiring me, but I just can't do this job anymore. And at that time, he says, oh, you don't have to leave. Why don't you come and work in my office? So I was poor, I didn't have any money. I didn't have any other prospects in sight, so I decided to take him up on that offer. And I went to Clarence's office. Little did I know, I was jumping from the skillet directly into the fire.
Anita Hill
So describe the environment in that office.
Sukari Hardnett
Clarence, he was like a fox in a hen house. He would approach different females at the Commission. He would talk about their bodies. He would talk about people that he was dating. He talked about things that I really wasn't particularly interested in discussing with him. And he felt that, this is my personal feeling, he felt that all the Black women at the Commission were really there at his beck and call to say whatever he wanted to say to them, to attempt to do whatever he wanted to do and that we, and they, were just there to accept it and not to complain about it. And I must admit, I never saw him interact that way with any of the white females at the Commission.
After a while, I saw how he interacted with me, and on many occasions, I would leave the office in the morning and try to not return, just to stay away because I did not want to be in that office. And he would call around, have people call around to find out where I was, for me to go to have coffee with him or to just chat with him. So I would try to get involved in other activities at the Commission. And it got to the point where I did not want to be in that office anymore. And I asked to be transferred out of that office to the General Counsel's office at that time. And I was told by the woman who was executive secretary at that time that people did not ask to be transferred out of the chairman's office. But I told her that I guess I'm an exception and I don't want to be in here anymore.
Anita Hill
Did you experience something similar to this in other professional roles that you had or was this something unique about this office?
Sukari Hardnett
Well, being a Black woman in America and a young woman in America, we're oftentimes subjected to what's known now is sexual harassment. But it happens on different levels, and sometimes in order to survive, you just try to shirk it off. But in this particular situation, because of the way that I felt about civil rights, because I knew the importance of that position and the importance of that organization, it was really difficult for me to watch Clarence take it so cavalierly. And the things that I thought were important in terms of civil rights and what was happening in the nation and our progression as a people, our progression as women, I just did not see that happening at the Commission at that time.
Anita Hill
Do you remember when you first found out that Thomas was being considered for the Supreme Court?
Sukari Hardnett
Yes, I do. When Clarence was nominated for that position, I was literally shocked because I knew him, I knew what he did at the Commission, and I could not believe that somebody like Clarence would be considered for such an important position. And really, I don't understand why I was so naive at that time, because that same body is the body that upheld Plessy versus Ferguson, the same body that said that we were not entitled to certain rights as human beings, as full human beings. So I remember talking to different people and eventually talking to the dean of my law school, Edgar Khan, and meeting with Edgar and saying to him, "Edgar, something's got to be done about this." And really thinking, what could be done, because it seemed like it was already etched in stone that that's what was going to take place. He would be nominated.
Anita Hill
Right. The president said he was the best qualified man for the job. You had already left the EEOC by then.
Sukari Hardnett
That's correct.
Anita Hill
He had left the EEOC to sit on the Court of Appeals in Washington, DC, which is considered to be one of the entry points to a Supreme Court nomination, sitting in the DC Court of Appeals. So given all of that that you knew, what did you expect to happen? How did you expect that the confirmation hearing was going to play out?
Sukari Hardnett
Well, I had no idea. I had no idea. Eventually, I began to hear your name. I began to hear more about you and what was taking place, and I sort of witnessed what you were going through with the confirmation hearings. And as a result of that, I really became alarmed and got in touch again with my professor, Edgar Khan, and told him that I felt that I had to do something or that we needed to organize a group of people to get together to do something to support you. But what we decided to do was to attempt to give some credence to what you were saying and to let people know that it was not unusual for Clarence to act that way with people, and especially Black women at the Commission. Like I said before, he was like a fox in a henhouse, and I wanted to make the committee aware of the fact that you were not lying to them or making up statements that this in fact is what was happening at the EEOC.
Anita Hill
And that you had witnessed it.
Sukari Hardnett
And that I witnessed it firsthand.
Anita Hill
When we come back Hardnett and I will get into the details of how her statement was handled or mishandled.
You're listening to Getting Even, my podcast about equality and what it takes to get there. I'm Anita Hill and I'm talking with Sukari Hardnett. She submitted a statement to the Senate Judiciary Committee in 1991 outlining Clarence Thomas's behavior that she witnessed while working at the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, but she was never given an opportunity to testify.
So it's out of your hands, you've written your statement. What did you expect to happen with the statement? What would you have liked to have happened even?
Sukari Hardnett
Well, I would like to have had the opportunity to testify before the Committee to let them know that what you were saying was absolutely true, that your experiences had been my experiences at the Commission. Clarence was not the best qualified person for that position. There were many, many, if they wanted to have a Black person in that position, there were many, many, many Black men and women who were far more qualified than Clarence and somebody who was suitable to step into the "seat" that was held by Thurgood Marshall. I was fearful, actually, that if he got into that position, considering conversations that I'd had with him, that he would do exactly what he has done through the years.
Anita Hill
Do you know what actually happened to the statement after you handed it over?
Sukari Hardnett
Oh, well, I knew that it reached the Senate Judiciary Committee because they said that another woman has come out. So I knew that the Committee had the statement and I knew that there was a possibility that they would call me and I was prepared. I felt that I was prepared at that time to answer whatever questions they might have had, probably not as artfully and skillfully and with such poise as you did, but definitely I felt that I could give them whatever information they wanted to support your position.
Anita Hill
So what, if any, communications did you have with the Senate Judiciary Committee?
Sukari Hardnett
None.
Anita Hill
None. With the staffers or-
Sukari Hardnett
None.
Anita Hill
So you were not told anything about your statement, per se, until you were told that you were not going to be testifying?
Sukari Hardnett
No, I was never told that I would not be testifying.
Anita Hill
Oh, okay.
Sukari Hardnett
No one from the Committee, not the staff members on the Committee ever got in touch with me. The most I heard was what I saw on television. And after a while, I stopped looking at the proceedings because I thought it was just a sham. And as a Black woman, it was very difficult for me to sit down and see what they were trying to do to you. But I think because of your poise, and I think I saw your family there, because of your family support, and just an inner calmness that you seemed to have, I think, carried you through and prevented them from succeeding.
Anita Hill
Were you still watching the hearings when Biden banged down the gavel and closed them out?
Sukari Hardnett
No, at that point I knew what the writing on the wall was. I knew that they were going to confirm Thomas, and that was my fear, and they did. And look where we are now. Look at the composition of the court. Like I said, I was very naive then and I thought that only certain learned people who had a sense of justice and righteousness should hold those positions. But I have subsequently learned that that is not the case. And the sad thing about that is that I'm not the only one who has noticed that, that these are the things that erode at our democratic system.
Our system is based upon us agreeing to believe in certain things and to live by certain rules. And when those rules are broken down, when people are put in a position where they don't trust that the system will work the way that they've been told it's going to work or it should work, then that's when you start to have problems. And I think the thing that has made America the country that it is not so much because it was so righteous from the beginning, but because we have struggled as a nation to get to the point where we try to become a more perfect union.
Anita Hill
So ultimately, your statement was put into the record, which is, of course, not the same as being asked to testify, not being allowed to testify. I guess, let me ask it. Why do you think the Senate Judiciary Committee didn't either subpoena you or call you to testify?
Sukari Hardnett
I have no idea. I think pretty much it was decided that Clarence would be placed in that position. I don't know if the Democratic white males on the Committee felt that their hands were sort of tied and they were attacking a Black man. Clarence used all of the language. I could not believe a high-tech lynching. I thought to myself, or a high-tech Tom. But at any rate, it's almost like they were afraid or intimidated and just sort of sugarcoated everything when it came to Clarence Thomas. And it was very difficult for me to look at it then, and then almost 30 years later, I couldn't watch the Kavanaugh hearings because it was reliving, to me, the whole situation with the Thomas hearing. And Ms. Ford's testimony was as compelling as your testimony was.
Anita Hill
I have been welcoming the chance to talk with you and to hear from you and for the people who would've wanted to hear from you 30 years ago can hear what you had to say. I think one of the greatest disservices of the 1991 hearing was the failure to call you to testify. I think it was done as a way to slight and dismiss the value of the voices of Black women. It was a way to avoid hearing the truth that the Committee may or may not have been willing to deal with as the truth. I think it was disrespectful. And I just wanted to be a part of revealing that our truths have merit and they should be listened to and taken into account in the way the world is shaped.
When we talk about fairness and equality, we can't have it unless we are listening to the people who have suffered from inequality. And so in part, we're asking what if, and a big part of the what if is, what if all of the information that was available in 1991, that information that you provided, that the other witnesses had provided, that some of the experts had developed and were ready to testify to, what if that had been made public? Do you think that the public conversation might be different today? Because you've talked about where we are today and you talked about Christine Blase Ford in 2018. Could that hearing have been different had the 1991 hearing been different?
Sukari Hardnett
Anita, I don't know, but what I do know is that you give people information and you let them decide. You don't withhold information and then say, well, look at the conclusion that they came to. And we, as a nation, were denied that opportunity to hear all the facts, to weigh the facts, and to come to the conclusion, whatever conclusion we chose to come to. Now, in the Kavanaugh hearings, they were given the facts. And I think we have a responsibility to give people the facts, to give them the truth and not make believe facts, things that we make up, but to give them the truth and then they can decide. And if they take the facts and they misuse them, then it's on them. If they take the facts and they cover them up and they hide it, then it's on them. But we have a responsibility to give people the facts and to give them true facts and let them decide at that point what to do with those facts.
Anita Hill
In retrospect, given the way that things played out with your statement, would you do it differently today?
Sukari Hardnett
Without question, I would do the same thing. I have no reservations, no doubts, not one. I would do the same thing, because what you said and what you did was the truth and I wanted to support the truth. And I think even more so in this period in our country, we understand how important it is to have the facts and to have true facts. And so I would do it, I would do the exact same thing all over again.
Anita Hill
Do you think that there are other people who were intimidated from coming forward by the behavior of the Committee?
Sukari Hardnett
Well, I think afterwards I talked to people. I remember one friend said to me that another friend had called and said, about me, "What was she thinking? Why would she do something like that?" It never occurred to me that the consequences would be what they have been. I have not been able to basically get a job with an organization, with a law firm. I went into private practice because that was the only option that I had. I've been pretty much blacklisted. Not that there was a concerted effort to blacklist me, but if anybody knew that I'd testified or given support to you, they basically did not want to have my name on their letterhead.
Anita Hill
Has the experience that you had in 1991 shaped how you think about fighting for justice and truth for the people that you represent?
Sukari Hardnett
Definitely. There's a saying that was used on the continent for many, many years, and I believe in that. The struggle continues, and it's just made me even more determined to struggle and to support just causes that I believe in. That will be my fight for the rest of my life. It has not curtailed my determination, it has not hindered it in any way. It's really just made me even more determined to continue to do what I do, to fight for what I believe in and what I know is the right thing to do.
Anita Hill
The way the senators and the media handled the hearing didn't just impact Hardnett in me. And it wasn't just that they failed to call her to testify. All of it had a ripple effect on millions of people who were watching at home. Some of them deciding for themselves if they would speak up about sexual harassment that they had experienced or witnessed. I've received thousands of letters. I still receive letters from people telling me about sexual harassment that has altered their lives, and I can't help wondering why they still have to pay such a high price for telling the truth, for doing the right thing.
Sukari Hardnett
So the struggle does continue.
Anita Hill
Yes, it does.
Sukari Hardnett
I do have one question in particular. Why did you name your program Getting Even?
Anita Hill
Well, because I think what we have talked about for many years is opportunity, and what we're looking for is outcomes. We want results. I wanted us to think about equality and equity in a new way, not just in terms of opportunity, but also in terms of outcomes, measurable outcomes in the way that people live every day. So that's why it's Getting Even.
Sukari Hardnett
I think that's my only question. I just want to say that I hope you continue on the path that you have chosen, and if at any point I can be of any assistance, please let me know. But I'm very proud of you and you've made a tremendous sacrifice, tremendous sacrifice, and I'm glad that you did. And if you are ever in Washington, we should have lunch.
Anita Hill
Yes. We'll find a place close to the Supreme Court.
Sukari Hardnett
Okay.
Anita Hill
Sit down and have lunch together.
Sukari Hardnett
Okay. Take care.
Anita Hill
Thank you.
I will always be grateful to Sukari Hardnett for taking an enormous risk to help me. We will never know the price she paid for simply coming forward to tell the truth. If only one of the senators had stepped up and demanded that she be called to testify, that she be heard, if they had someone deciding whether to speak out against sexual harassment they'd witness might have had the courage to follow her example. We can't redo 1991, but I'm hopeful that others like me will see Hardnett as their model for how to be brave in the face of injustice.
On the next episode of Getting Even, I'll be talking with Susan Deller Ross. She was the only member of my 1991 legal team with experience in sexual harassment law. We'll be discussing what went on behind the scenes.
Susan Deller Ross
There was very clear evidence. The media never reported on it afterwards. They shut it down once he was confirmed. So the general public has never come to learn exactly what the evidence was that corroborated everything you said.
Anita Hill
Getting Even is a production of Pushkin Industries and is written and hosted by me, Anita Hill. It is produced by Mo Laborde and Brittani Brown. Our editor is Sarah Kramer. Our engineer is Amanda Kay Wang, and our showrunner is Sachar Mathias. Luis Guerra, composed original music for the show. Special thanks to Vicki Merrick for voice coaching and Eve Abrams for recording this episode. Our executive producers are Mia Lobel and Leital Molad. Our Director of Development is Justine Lang. At Pushkin, thanks to Heather Fain, Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrell, Julia Barton, Jon Schnaars, and Jacob Weisberg.
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