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Dawn Hudson, the C.E.O. of the Academy of Motion Pictures, talks with Anita Hill about the legacy of #OscarsSoWhite and why the hashtag still has relevance 7 years later. When will more people of color be recognized at the Oscars?
Anita Hill
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Anne Bancroft
The nominees for the best performance by an actor are Albert Finney and Tom Jones. Richard Harris in this...
Anita Hill
That's actress Anne Bancroft announcing the nominees for the Academy Award for best actor in 1964.
Anne Bancroft
The winner is Sidney Poitier in...
Anita Hill
Sidney Poitier received the distinction. It's hard to hear his name above the roar of applause.
Sidney Poitier
It is a long journey to this moment. Oh. I can say it's a very special thank you.
Anita Hill
The 1964 Academy Awards marked the first time that a Black actor, male or female, won Hollywood's highest honor, for their performance in a leading role. Almost 40 years later, the first Black female actor was awarded the same honor, when Halle Berry won Best Actress in 2002.
Halle Berry
This moment, so much bigger than me.
Anita Hill
Today, she's still the only one. I'm Anita Hill. This is a special episode of Getting Even. This week, we are going to the Oscars. In recent years, the need to diversify Hollywood has become increasingly clearer, and the Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences has made strides. Nine actors of color were nominated for Academy Awards in 2021, and Chloé Zhao became the first woman of Color to win Best Director. Like a lot of progress we've seen lately, this all started with a tweet.
April Reign
In January of 2015, I was watching the Academy Award nominations. In category after category, 20 different fields, there were no people of color, so I said, "Oscars so white, they asked to touch my hair."
Anita Hill
That's media strategist, April Reign, the originator of the Oscarssowhite hashtag. Her viral tweet drew much deserved attention to the lack of diverse representation in Hollywood filmmaking, both on screen and behind the camera. The Oscarssowhite hashtag made rounds again the following year, but the impact of the conversation that April Reign started was on full display by 2021. With the 2022 Academy Awards coming up this weekend, I wanted to know more about how this progress was made. So I called up a good friend of mine.
Dawn Hudson
Hi, I'm Dawn Hudson. I'm the Chief Executive Officer of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.
Anita Hill
Who has been at the forefront of change, during a critical decade in Hollywood.
Dawn Hudson
I started with the Academy in June 1st, 2011.
Anita Hill
And I asked her how we got where we are, where we're headed, and what the Academy actually does.
Dawn Hudson
I'm so happy to be here, Anita.
Anita Hill
You are in Hollywood, in, I think, one of the most important roles in the industry, but most of the people know only the words that you hear when people win an Oscar and say, "I want to thank the Academy." But they don't really, most people don't know how it's made up, how it operates.
Dawn Hudson
It was started with just the intention of advocating for the arts and sciences of motion pictures. And it's unique in that it's an organization that it isn't a guild or it isn't representing one single sector of filmmaking. We're representing everyone who makes a film. So when you say, "I'd like to thank the Academy," you're thanking all of those artists who make up filmmaking.
Anita Hill
And the Oscars are really what most people see. They don't realize that you are, year round, doing things to support the industry, as well as the people who are in the industry. But for the most part, people do understand the awards programs. That's what they see. That's the part that's most visible, and they don't know what the workings or inner workings of that process is. So can you tell us a little bit about that?
Dawn Hudson
Sure, sure. And I want to emphasize that that award ceremony, while this is our most public night, Oscar night, it is one day out of 365 days. This group who founded the Academy in 1927, they really had a vision for this organization, that extended way beyond an award ceremony. In the original charters, they talked about, "let's create a library. Let's preserve this art form of motion pictures." So as soon as they could, they started collecting scripts and collecting artifacts from movies, posters, production design drawings. They started collecting this all year long, until they then built a library and built a film archive. What you see on Oscar night is an event that helps to fund all of that collection, all of these programs, all year long. It was sort of like the Library of Congress is devoted to our history in books and a lot of other things. That's what the Academy is for movies.
Anita Hill
And I think I know the answer to this question, but you keep the names of the Academy members confidential. Why is that?
Dawn Hudson
We don't. We used to.
Anita Hill
Oh, you don't?
Dawn Hudson
But we don't. It used to be perceived as even a very Los Angeles centric community. People didn't even know how to become a member or how you would even apply to become a member or what's the requirements for becoming a member. So it was sort of like, even if you were from New York, it was hard to understand what was going on. So now, we try to demystify that process for filmmakers all over the world.
Anita Hill
After the break, Dawn Hudson and I talk about the tweet heard round the industry. I'm Anita Hill. This is Getting Even Oscar special. I'm talking to Dawn Hudson, CEO of the Academy of Motion Pictures about inclusion in Hollywood. You began at the Academy in 2011, and I've actually heard you say that, from the minute that you arrived in the position, your board made it very clear that the industry was changing and that the Academy needed to change. So that was part of, I'm sure, what attracted you to the Academy and what attracted them to you was that they thought that you could be that person to bring about some of the things that we're already talking about. But in 2015, April Reign tweeted, "Oscars so white, they asked to touch my hair," which became a joke in a sense, but the tweet went viral. And it really did shine a light on the Academy, that, I think, surprised some people in the public, but also sparked even more of an urgency for the change. Is that correct?
Dawn Hudson
100% correct, that I was invited in, because the Academy wanted to be more modern and contemporary and be a part of the contemporary world of filmmaking. And they felt they had become a little removed from it. But when I got there, the practices had been put in place. It was just reinforcing this kind of older boys club, because when I got there, I was like, "wow, I'm the only," I felt like, I wasn't the only woman in the boardroom, but there was just a few of us. And you fought for this all your life. It's a very different feeling when you're just one or two female voices in the room. It was intimidating for me. It was intimidating. And luckily, there were a lot of male and female governors who reached out and said, "no, no, no, we want this change. Come on. Please keep talking to us."
But it was hard for them to see, at first, the practices that were in place, that would be exclusionary. Someone at just a member commented to me one time, when I first started, and he said, "well, look, if anyone is good, they're already a member of the Academy." And I said, "I can tell you people right now, off the top of my head, 25 people now, who are not members of the Academy, who are the top, top, in the field. So we can't say we have everybody good here." So I think we began that commitment to change in 2011, when I started, it began very slowly. But it was, first of all, it was kind of an education of, "really? Are we that exclusionary?" And you say, "yes, because we have 8%," or even the fewer than 8%, I think it was 6% people of color in our whole membership.
We had just 22% women in our whole membership. We're not reaching all the artists. I'll tell you. This is bad or this is not representative of the best of the best. But what happened, when we had our second year of all white actor nominees, because that's really what the public looks at, that's the most visible nominees, along with Best Picture and Director. But there's nothing like being called out publicly and a crisis like that, that really motivates everybody to make very bold changes very quickly. So after the Oscar so white, we created something called a 2020. We committed to doubling the number of women and doubling the number of people from underrepresented racial and ethnic groups in our membership.
Anita Hill
Well, and sometimes, it takes a spark or somebody from the outside to really draw attention, to get your attention. It does take a while to identify the problem. Believe me, I understand that, working with the Hollywood Commission, that it takes a while to really identify the problem, convince people that it is a problem, convince people that you can solve the problem, and that you're all going to be better off if you do. So I think that's a process.
Dawn Hudson
You're absolutely right. I appreciate your saying that. When I came in, there was no perceived crisis or emergency. There was like, "well, everything's fine here." Some people felt we needed to do things differently, but some people were like, "whoa, we've got a great show. The numbers are great. We've got the number one entertainment show in the world. We've got a brand that's recognized everywhere. What's your problem?" And we were just like, "well, there's a lot of problems. Let's start with these. Let's start with starting being more transparent in how the membership process works. Let's start with allowing access to people who are working on films to vote in the Academy Awards."
We want more representation in the storylines and in the people in front and back of the camera, because it says, "Hey, this can be your team too." And if the winners of the Oscars of this homogeneous group, it doesn't say, "come in, come play with us." So I think the Oscars are much more important than actually winning a statuette. I think it's what it represents to the world, and that's why we want to make them as representative, the Academy's as representative, filmmaking as representative.
Anita Hill
Are you satisfied with the progress that you've made? You have results, is this enough?
Dawn Hudson
No, it's not enough. It's still so painful to see different communities not represented proportionately, both in the companies who are making and distributing films and in the films themselves, which films get chosen to be released, to be promoted, or to be funded. Films are primarily made by white men, and the actors are primarily white and male. That's what the public sees, and that's the art, the narrative we're putting out into the world, the narratives we're putting out into the world. When I was growing up, movies had such a profound influence on me, and then, I went to college and I saw international films. I saw Bergman films, I saw Fellini films. I thought, "oh my God, there's a whole world I didn't know existed." Then I even saw films that dramatize the South and my family situation, and I learned about myself and I learned different ways of thinking. And I know that narrative and movies have that impact on everyone across the world. They need to be as honest and representative as the world is. So no, I'm not satisfied, but am I gratified with the progress we have made? Yes, very much.
Anita Hill
With all of the changes, all of the need for change, and really, a movement I see inside the industry calling for change, do you think that the pieces that you are putting in place right now, and probably will continue until you clean out your desk and leave, will leave a lasting impression and will have a lasting effect?
Dawn Hudson
It's a great question, Anita. And I absolutely do believe that, because in order for us to be relevant and important and a symbol of aspiration for the future, we have to reflect our world, in all its diversity. This is not a temporary movement, and no doubt, that these changes will not last.
Anita Hill
Thank you. Thank you for your leadership. Thank you for all of the measures you've put in place, and thank you for just being true to your passion.
Dawn Hudson
Thank you, Anita, and thank you for the same thing. And thank you. I did want to say one thing with the Hollywood Film Commission, when you'd agreed to lead that, that was a very bright day for Hollywood. Because we knew this was going to happen. You were serious, and just what you symbolize for us, for women, for equity, for inclusion, and putting your time into this organization, it's meant a lot to us. And that is part of the reason why these changes are here to stay.
Anita Hill
Yeah.
Dawn Hudson
The fact that this girl from Oklahoma, sitting with me here, and I from Arkansas, are here on a podcast to talk about inclusion in Hollywood, I think that neither path could have been predicted.
Anita Hill
When I read that you were originally from Arkansas, I thought, "oh yeah, maybe that's why we hit it off. We're in this together." So I know I can count on you as a partner.
Dawn Hudson
Yes, you can, as you know.
Anita Hill
Yes.
Dawn Hudson
I don't know if people know. I call you many times in late hours to get advice, and I appreciate that.
Anita Hill
You are great. The 2022 Academy Award nominees may not be as racially diverse as last year's slate, but there is much to celebrate about this year's nominated class. Two queer women are nominated for awards, Ariana DeBose and Kristen Stewart. King Richard, a dramatized telling of Richard, Venus, and Serena Williams' triumphant journey is nominated for six Academy Awards. And CODA, a film about a deaf family, that features deaf actors in its leading roles, received three nominations, including Best Picture. No one knows who'll take home the big prize on Sunday night, but this year, when you hear the winners thank the Academy, you'll at least know who they're talking about. On the same night, 20 years ago, that Halle Berry became the first black woman to win the award for Best Actress, Sidney Poitier received an honorary Oscar for his outstanding role as an artist and human being.
Sidney Poitier
I accept this award in memory of all the African-American actors and actresses who went before me in the difficult years, on whose shoulders I was privileged to stand, to see where I might go.
Anita Hill
I know that the path the late actor forged will continue to draw artists of color to Hollywood, and I hope that the entertainment industry will embrace its role as a mirror to the world, in the stories it tells and in the people who tell them.
Sidney Poitier
Here I am, this evening, at the end of a journey, that, in 1949, would have been considered almost impossible, and in fact, might never have been set in motion, were there not an untold number of courageous, unselfish choices made by a handful of visionary American filmmakers, directors, writers, and producers. Thank you.
Anita Hill
Getting Even is a production of Pushkin Industries, and it's written and hosted by me, Anita Hill. It is produced by Mo LaBorde and Brittani Brown. Our editor is Sarah Kramer. Our engineer is Amanda Kay Wang, and our showrunner is Sachar Mathias. Luis Guerra composed original music for the show. Our executive producers are Mia Lobel and Leital Molad. Our director of development is Justine Lang at Pushkin. Thanks to Heather Fain, Carly Migliori, Jason Gambrell, Julia Barton, Jon Schnaars, and Jacob Weisberg. You can find me on Twitter at Anita Hill and on Facebook at Anita Hill. You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin.fm. If you love this show and others from Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus, and you can hear Getting Even and other Pushkin shows ad-free and receive exclusive bonus episodes. Sign up on the Getting Even show page in Apple Podcast or at pushkin.fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you like to listen.