Maya Lau is the creator, host and executive producer of the podcast, Other People’s Pockets, produced by Pushkin Industries and Little Everywhere. She's an award-winning former investigative reporter for The…
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Maggie Wolbert will transform your hair — but only into bright, mega-watt, loud colors! This “vivid artist” turned her passion for brilliant hair color into a money-making niche in Tacoma, WA. She talks about not fitting into the corporate world, and which months of the year are rain-makers, hair dyeing-wise.
I mean, I really do tell new hair stylists like, "You are not going to make money for a long time"
Until you get a specialty, or a certain clientele.
Exactly, yeah. Or just a bunch of people I need to, yeah. But once you're there, it's very steady and very, I guess, recession-proof. Right now, I'm booked out 10 weeks, so it's like whatever happens, at least I know I can work for the next 10 weeks to make money.
How much do you love your hair? Enough to spend $600 a month on touch-ups, enough to die wild colors, and have rainbow hair beacons so much a part of your identity, you can't even remember what your natural hair color is? My guest, Maggie Walbert, lives in that world.
My name is Maggie Murray. My married name is Maggie Walbert, and I am a vivid hair colorist.
Maggie lives in Tacoma, Washington. She's what's known as a vivid artist, a hair stylist specializing in giving people super bright electric, colorful hair. She told me about how she turned a middle finger to corporate dress codes, and how she carved out space for herself in a tough industry. Now, she's looking at buying a home, and of course, some Taylor Swift tickets. I'm Maya Lau, and this is Other Peoples's Pockets, the show where I ask people about their money, so the questions we all have about how much other people make, and how their finances work can be a little bit less of a mystery. Why vivid hair?
Because it's fun. After you do the same job for so many years, I think it's with any job, it gets repetitive, and maybe boring, for lack of a better word. But vivid hair color is bright, it's fun, it's exciting. Every single time, it's different, keeps it interesting.
It's so cool. Looking at your Instagram feed, it looks amazing.
Thanks. It is fun. Come to the dark side or the bright side, I guess.
Yeah, the bright side. I will consider it.
Did you start it when you were already doing hair, like you were already a hair stylist, and then did you morph into vivid hair or?
Yeah, it was a slow morph, I would say. I've been doing hair since 2009. Obviously, in beauty school they teach you the basics. You're doing your highlights, your perms, your color retouches, just your basic stuff, and then thrown in there, there's fun little projects. I had pink hair since I was 15 years old, and I had it forever. I think I attracted a certain type of clientele, and I think my friends, doing my friend's hair, they wanted a little color here and there, and it slowly just snowballed into, that's primarily what I do at this point.
I would also imagine though, your clientele is youngerish, so imagining they don't have a ton of grays.
Yeah, that's true.
Because I'm imagining some of your clients are Gen Z or younger millennial people that aren't people in their fifties with a super established corporate career.
I would say, my clientele ranges anywhere from 18 to early to mid-forties. I mean, I'm 31, I'm almost 32, and basically my age, I guess. But I guess, I'm getting older, so I do have a lot of 20-year olds.
How do they afford that?
I do have a lot of girls that work in... Do you guys know what bikini barista stands are?
Yeah. I used to live in Seattle.
Oh, okay, so you're very well aware.
Yeah. For people who don't know, it's a little tiny kiosk in random parking lots with a barista, but she's in a bikini.
Yeah. It's that.
Apparently, the coffee is super expensive, and it's not particularly good.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. But they just get money thrown at them. I have a handful of girls that are in that, and so they have money. They have money. They're 20 to 25-years old, and they are raking in cash. They pay me in cash a lot. And then I've also noticed my girls that don't, that are in the industry, they just work normal jobs in the retail and stuff like that. I think getting their hair done is just, they're like one thing that they splurge on.
Right. Anything racially, in terms of who's getting this done?
I would say most of my clientele is white, probably 80%, which I think there's... I don't know what it is, but I think a lot of people of color think that they can't have hair like that, because of their hair texture, which is not true at all.
But it can be tough on your hair, right?
Oh, yeah, 100%. It's not so much texture, it's more of the actual thickness of your hair strand that matters. Some people have baby fine hair, and if you put bleach on it, it's going to stay on your head, but it's not going to feel good. But people that have thicker coarser hair, you're able to do a little more damage on it, lighten it a few more times to get where it needs to be, and it's going to hold on okay.
What should I not be buying at Target, shampoo-wise? What's just a dumb, please don't do that to your hair?
You're going to really hate this answer. But truly, everything at Target you should not be using on your hair. You want to buy professional products from a hair salon, essentially. Ooh, this is a whole thing. Diversion within the hair care industry or hair industry, if you see a salon brand on a shelf at Target, it is expired, or completely not the same product at all. People go in thinking like, "Oh, I saw this brand at my salon on the shelf, I'm going to buy it here. It's cheaper." It's not the same thing. You have to buy it from a trusted salon, because a lot of those things are filled with sulfates and waxes, literal floor wax, that will coat your hair and make it seem, and look, and feel shiny, and healthy. But what it's doing is putting a layer on your hair, and coating it, and your actual hair underneath is dying.
It's dehydrated. There's a coating on it now, so it's just drying the heck out underneath that. I understand people have different budgets, and some people just straight up don't care. If they have no problems with their hair, and it works for them, great. That's how I feel about box dye too. If you've been doing the same box color for 15 years, and it works for you, and you like how it looks, great, keep doing that. You know what I mean? Getting your hair done is a luxury, for sure. Some people just don't see it as a luxury, and that's okay.
Do you remember how your family thought about money? Did you get messages from your parents, whether they told you anything or not, or whether you just picked it up?
I don't think so. Now that I'm like, you're asking me these questions, I'm like, this is strange that I don't have any financial memories. I don't know. It was just never a topic in my household.
Why do you think it was that your family didn't talk about money?
I think it may have been a taboo thing, or my parents trying to protect me, and my brother. Looking back as an adult, there were a lot of things that they, I think, protected us from. To this day, I don't even know why they divorced. I have an idea, but they never let us see that side of their relationship, even when they were arguing, and stuff like that. I think they tried to hide a lot of bad stuff from us, which I appreciate, because if we did have financial struggles, I didn't know about them. I don't know if that was just being naive, and being a literal child. You know what I mean? I don't know. We could have been going through something financial, and I wouldn't even know.
It was interesting. My parents divorced when I was in third grade, and so at that point, finances split. I know now, as an adult, after talking with my parents, my mother was a teacher on a teacher's salary with two kids. You know what I mean? It was definitely more difficult for her than my father. My father moved into a tiny apartment for a while. Actually, okay, now that we're talking about this, my dad moved into a really crappy apartment in Federal Way, and it was very run down, and I remember thinking like, "Oh, this is weird, and a little uncomfortable for me." The house that I grew up in, I had my own bedroom. My older brother had his own bedroom. And then we would have to go over there every other weekend until we were 18, and he was in a one-bedroom apartment. My brother and I would both have to share the bed on the pullout couch, and it sunk in the middle. You know what I'm talking about?
I'd wake up next to my brother, and I'm like, "Oh, get off me." It was uncomfortable compared to then just going home, and being in our own separate bedrooms, and rooms. The apartment did have a pool which was lit. That was probably the only highlight to that entire situation. But I'm guessing my dad, the second he moved out, it's probably at the time the only thing he could afford. I think he was only there for a year or two, but it's probably the only thing he could afford, or it was just the easiest thing he could get into.
Did your mom keep the place where you had been living before?
Okay. My parents got divorced when I was nine. My dad got a different place, and he was able to buy a house. But these were the days when houses weren't as expensive, because that couldn't happen now. You couldn't get divorced. I'm just going to go buy another house.
No big deal. I'll just get another one that does not exist.
Right. Yeah. I remember it was like, this is different. It was not, it wasn't my home.
It wasn't my home. Yeah.
Yeah. How much money do you make?
This is a funny question, because I can't really give you an answer. I'm so bad with this, but I have an accountant, and he does literally everything. I can tell you how much the business brings in.
I have an LLC, and so I have the business, but then I have all my business expenses. The way I pay myself, I pay myself once every two weeks, and it varies depending on how busy those two weeks were. The last year, my business brought in 95,000, and this year I think, my accountant's projecting 115.
I would maybe, whatever all the taxes are, and then the cost of my rent at the salon, because I have leased a chair, and then all the products. Take all of that away, and then that's what I'm left with.
How do you feel about that?
I feel good about it now. I'm finally comfortable money-wise. My first, I would say, five or six years of doing hair, and actually, it was all when I was an employee for a salon. Before I started working for myself, I was not making any money. I think my first couple of years of doing hair, annually, I made $20,000 or something. But that was when I was working for corporate salons, first. I was young, I was 19, 20-years old, and I was like, "Whatever. As long as I'm paying my rent, I don't need money." But the older I got, I'm like, "Oh, no, no. I need to profit from this more." And then the second I switched over to working for myself, that's when I really saw a difference in how much money I made.
Oh, I love that.
I love that. I love how betting on yourself can be the ticket. It's like, "Oh, I actually have the skills, and I have the network." I don't need-
I don't need a corporate.
Or a corporation.
It's really freaking scary. It's very scary, because you need to have the clientele to support that. I had some friends right out of beauty school that jumped right into chair renting, and they like tanked.
Because they didn't have a clientele yet. Right.
They didn't have a clientele. It just doesn't make sense.
Do you have any goal amount that's like, this year I'd really like to make X, and if so, why do you arrive at that number?
To be honest, it's when I have meetings with my accountant. Every year, we have a business planning meeting, essentially. It's normally, actually, this time of year, in November, we meet, and he looks over my numbers up until that point, and projects what I should strive for the next year, and every single year... I've been working with him for five years, and ever since then, every year, I've met it. He gives me a number and I'm like, "All right, let's go. Let's do it." I use Square to run my business, and they are really good at giving you reports on everything. You can look up any specific number, and detail for anything. I'm always looking at my weekly reports, my monthly reports, and I have a certain number in my head that I need to meet weekly, in order to meet my monthly, in order to meet the year.
I just track those.
How do you figure out how much you get to charge or want to charge?
I don't know if there's a correct answer, but every few years, I will up my prices just based off of general inflation. You know what I mean?
And then I also base it off of... I work in a big salon right now, there's like 20 stylists, and about half of us are chair renters. We talk with each other, and ask what we're charging. Some people charge hourly, some people charge a la carte. I have an upper hand, where I am one of... I'm a specialist, so I'm one of the only people in my area that offers what I offer at the quality. I think I am expensive in comparison to some people, but I also have the experience, and the talent to support that, and back it. You know what I mean?
Why not charge by the project? Why not just be like, "This is going to be $2,000, it just is what it is."
I did that for a while. It's more difficult when you get into the vivid colors, compared to just like, this is the price of highlights. It varies so drastically, client to client. If I was like, "Okay, a vivid hair color, $400," it might be $400 for one client, but then somebody comes in with hair to their literal butt, and then I have to measure every single thing I use to the tee, and charge accordingly. It's honestly, so much work on the backend, so much more work to do that. Whereas if I just have a broad like, "Hey, this is how much it's going to cost an hour." If it's excessive, it'll be a little bit more than that, and it's just so much easier to calculate that way, for me, personally, I do have coworkers that do it the complete opposite, and that works for them.
I have a friend, she doesn't work with me anymore, but her main thing is extensions. She does extensions, and she makes so much money from extensions. That's actually something I'm going to work into my business next year. I'm learning how to do them, and I'm going to start offering that to my clients, because it's another way to make more money, and it also just expands my clientele.
How much are extensions?
Oh, they're expensive. It depends on who does it, and what hair, and what technique you have. But the hair that I have in right now, the hair itself costs about $600, and that was at hairstylist cost. You can double that charge for clients, so they would pay 1200 just for the hair, and then the installation, she charges $500 for the initial installation, and then every five weeks, you have to move them up on your head, which costs $400. It's a lot of money. It's more money than even my clients pay.
It's quick. The actual service is very quick. It's an hour to an hour and a half, she can make $1,500
That's where it's at.
I know. I know. I'm learning that. That's why I'm like, "Okay, I got to get on this."
Time is money.
Time is money.
Does hair go in line with economic downturns? Now that we're in a recession, or inflation is so high, do you see like, "Oh, people are dropping off," or does the colors change what people want, is that reflected in hair at all?
As an industry, I don't think it is, because the one thing that doesn't stop when you don't have as much money, is your hair keeps growing.
Yeah, yeah. They're going to get rid of their facials, and their massages and their gym memberships first.
That is so interesting.
I know. Which is great for me. They're going to keep getting their hair cut.
Right. People are not going to suddenly look either like shit, or not themselves, or not how they are used to looking.
Exactly. They're going to get rid of the stuff that is not 100% necessary. I have noticed that, especially right after we started working after the pandemic, so that was June of 2020, everybody had these long ass roots. We called them quarantine roots, which some people were so happy to get rid of and get taken care of. And then some people leaned into it, and they were like, "Is there any way we can blend this?" Some people get, they'll meet in the middle. Well, they'll have a... They'll transition to a more manageable, less maintenance, green hair, but it's green hair nonetheless. Instead of having to come in every six weeks, you add a root to it, and then they come in every 12 weeks instead.
You said the maintenance upkeep is 600 a month, but is there an initial amount that if you're getting this done from scratch, and is that a lot more?
Yeah. Say somebody comes in with long, dark, virgin hair, or even they have color on it, and you have to lighten the whole thing, I'll be with them for eight hours, sometimes. Anywhere from seven to 10 hours for that first initial appointment, and I charge 105 an hour. Whatever that math is, and that's a starting price. If they have excessive hair, and I have to use so much more product, it'll go up from there as well.
105 an hour for eight hours is $840, but it could be more if it's more hours?
It could be more. Yeah, just depending on that. I always say, it starts at that price.
Do you feel anyone taught you about money?
No, not at all. Not within my family, not within the school system, no.
How do you feel you've figured out, whatever it is that you've figured out?
It's been a complete guessing game, and really relying on my other fellow hair stylists, see what they're doing. There's no rule book or, I guess, guidebook on how to become an independent hair stylist. It's completely a guessing game.
But also what about in your personal finances, just figuring out how much you should be saving, or if you should be saving for retirement, or any of that?
I don't have retirement, or 401k, or anything like that. For me and my husband, personally, all of our paychecks that we get, we put away 15% into savings. We also started a Roth something.
A Roth IRA?
For anyone who doesn't know, that's a type of individual retirement account.
Yeah. We started one of those that my husband and I pay into. He does most of our budgeting stuff. He's on the computer every day looking at our finances, and moving stuff around. I trust him to do most of that. Being with my husband, my husband grew up poor, and so he has a completely different idea about money than I do. If I have a chunk of change, and it's just sitting in my bank account, and there's something that I want, that I could pay for with it, I have no problem just buying it. But I also think that's the tourist in me.
Yeah, you like nice things.
I like to indulge. I like nice things. But I've never been in debt. I think there's something in my head that stops me where I'm like, "Oh, well, I can't have that thing even if I paid with a credit card."
Mm-hmm. Do you not have any debt?
No, other than my card payment, my cards and stuff like that, but no.
Yeah. I think my husband has taught me a lot of that about how to use our credit cards smartly, and paying them off every month and whatever, because he never had money. Now that he does, he likes to be very smart with it, and he's taught me that. Literally next week, Taylor Swift tickets are going on sale.
The last time she came to town, I did a very bad tourist thing, and I ended up buying four pairs, because I kept finding better seats that were more expensive, and it was literally $3,000 later, I landed on my pair, and I'm like, "I can't do that. I can't just spend $3,000 on Taylor Swift tickets. Even if I resell them, I can't be doing that." You know what I mean? I have learned, I'm trying to be a little-
You have limits. Yeah.
... smarter. I have limits. Yeah. He teaches me a lot how to handle our finances.
That's really interesting. My husband also, we talk a lot about how our upbringing has really informed the way we look at money, and anxiety about money, and feeling there're certain things that for both of us feel like, "Oh, well, I couldn't afford." Literally, I just moved, and we had movers that pack everything for you, in part, because it was an international move. We moved to Mexico City.
You have to, because of the customs, they need everything to be organized in a certain way. But these people came for one day, and did it all for us. I don't think of myself as somebody who could afford that.
Yeah. But you were able to.
We were. I mean, it was not cheap, but it was necessary because of the customs thing. Yeah. It's just interesting how it's like, "Oh, well, actually, we can afford this now." But I'm not used to doing that kind of thing.
Absolutely. I've never paid for movers. The last time we moved, we were like, "Next time, we're paying for this."
Do you have any anxieties about money?
Not as much as my husband. I think any anxieties I do have come from him projecting onto me.
How does that show up in your marriage?
It shows up in our marriage by me spending more than he wants me to. My husband always tells me, or he tells other people rather. He's like, "I am the one that stresses out about money. But if Maggie says we can afford to do this thing, I'm also going to trust her, because it's worked out so far." Anytime we plan a trip or something and he's like, "Are you sure we can afford it?" I'll look at stuff and I'm like, "Yeah, we can make it happen." And then once we're back from said trip, he's like, "Oh my God, I'm so happy we did that. I'm so happy it worked out. Thank you." It's like putting trust in each other, give and take a little bit.
I'm curious if there's anything else that you indulge in, like it doesn't matter how much it costs, you're going to buy it?
I travel a lot for concerts. We're a big music family. My husband is a musician, so we travel for festivals a lot. That's probably the biggest expense, I would say. I get my nails done, and I get massages, and facials, and whatever.
What class do you consider yourself a part of now?
Middle class, for sure.
Working middle class. Yeah. Because my husband's very blue-collar.
Mm-hmm. Okay. What does enough look like to you?
If you would've asked me a year ago, I would've been like, "I'm okay. I have enough right now with where I'm at in life." But my husband and I are hoping to purchase a house in the next few months, well, probably six months or so. We're definitely hustling right now, to be able to prepare ourselves to be ready for that big jump, because that's a huge, the biggest financial thing we've ever done, so far. As of right now, in this moment, I feel I don't have enough for that to happen.
Yeah. I mean, especially with housing, it's like if you didn't want a house, yeah, you'd be fine. But once you throw a house into the equation, it's like there's no way to feel you have enough. It's like, "Okay, I can't. I don't have a million dollars." I feel I know people in Tacoma who've gotten four to $500,000 homes. I mean, I realize in different parts of the country, that's still considered a lot. Yeah. It's like, there's no way to feel you have enough, because it's like these prices are-
They don't make any sense.
Literally, insane. We have a saving grace where, because my husband remodels homes for a living, his pipe dream is to get a fixer-upper, anyways.
Yeah, that's also such a great position to be in.
Yeah. Because then we won't have to pay for labor or anything. Once we do make the jump, I think it'll be a little easier for us to get in than other people, because we have that advantage. But it's still, it's like to get a three bedroom, one or two bathroom house in Tacoma, that's decent and not falling apart is four to $500,000, which is, that's a lot of money.
What's your house budget? What are you guys looking at right now, when you punch it into Zillow?
We're looking at 450.
That's considering that you'll still need to make improvements to it?
No. Actually, that was newer homes.
Has anything really negative, or really positive ever happened to you around money?
Okay. Business-wise, ,I was just talking to my husband about this the other night. It sounds really bad and I feel bad saying this, but because of the pandemic, 2020, once we started working again, even though I missed three months of work, because we weren't allowed to work for 12 weeks, 2020, I made the most money I ever have, total. It boosted my business big time and I hate saying that, because 2020 was such an awful year for so many people, personally or financially, whatever. But it was a really, really good year for my business, and then me and my husband. That's the year my husband started his company as well, because he got laid off from all of his jobs, because of COVID. That's when he started his own business, and that took off. Yeah. I hate saying that, but COVID really helped us financially.
I feel like that is a COVID story. I feel there was record numbers of new business filings, and people being like, "All right, I'm going to go out on my own." They did it, and for a lot of people, it worked.
Yeah. It is weird to think about. What happens when you, I don't know, want to slow down, or be more flexible, or retire?
I would say three-year plan right now, I'm going to manifest it. I will open my own salon.
Because I've been doing this for, going on 14 years now. My body is messed up from it. As much as I would love to do hair forever, I just know that I won't be able to, especially with, in the next couple of years, we want to start having children, and stuff, and so I'll need to figure out a way how to step back from behind the chair, but still make as much money if not more. Yeah. I'm going to open my own salon. My very best friend, she does hair as well. We work in the same spot together. We will open something of our own. Our Plan is to find a space, make it as cool as we want it. Hopefully, we'll have other stylists in there that I will be able to make money from monthly, while they're making money for the salon, and themselves, and slowly step back from behind the chair, and do stuff more behind the scenes, and just running the business, I suppose.
As far as retirement, stuff like that, I don't... There, we still have a lot of stuff we need to figure out, because there's nothing set up for independent stylist like myself. Even for healthcare, I don't have healthcare right now.
Not even through your husband?
No, because he's independent too. He owns his own business. I'm in this weird spot where I make too much money to get state assistance.
But I don't make enough, where for the amount they want me to pay. I think the last time we checked, for the both of us, it was $800 a month or something, which I'm like, "If I had an extra $800 a month to just spend, I would be driving away nicer car."
Right. You should raise your prices, and get healthcare.
You are in a good position.
I know. I could, and I am, actually at the beginning of the year. This time of year is actually the best time for stylists to raise their prices, because people are already in the money spending mindset with the holidays.
This is from November to January is when all hair stylists should up their prices.
It's cold, you're hunkering down.
Maybe you're not going out as much, or maybe you are going out more, because it's cold. But it's just really interesting to hear you say that. I would've thought summer would be when people are like, I want to look hot and-
Totally. I see why you would think that. But in my experience with, at least with my clientele, summer is actually slower, because people are going on their summer vacations.
They'd rather spend their money, and they're just gone.
They're not even in town. People are home, and want to look good for their holidays, and they're already spending all this money on Christmas presents and whatever, so I always up my prices, and people don't even bat an eye at it.
How do you decide when to work, or your schedule or...
I work four days a week right now, and that is mostly based off of how I feel. When I work five days a week, I want to die. Just adding an extra day onto that, it really takes a toll on my body, and my mental well-being.
Right now, I work four days a week. With my schedule right now, I'm able to meet the criteria that me, and my accountant have gone over for myself for the goal. I'll make my goals, if I work four days a week at my... I charge hourly, like I said. At my hourly rate, I make what I need to.
Can you talk about the physical toll that doing hair takes on your body?
Yes. My body is falling apart. Since, I would say, my fourth or fifth year of doing hair, I developed tendinitis in both of my shoulders from holding up my arms all day, and blow-drying, so I'm forever having tension here. And then just since 2020, I developed cubital tunnel syndrome in my left arm, which is... It's basically carpal tunnel, but it's on the other part of your hand. It's my outer two fingers, my pinky, and my ring finger, the outside of my arm, and then traveled up to pretty much my shoulder. It goes completely numb, and it feels like when your foot falls asleep, and you shake it off, but you can't shake it off. It's like this uncomfortable numbing, sometimes tingling sensation. Also, in the last six months, I developed golfer's elbow, which is-
Like a repetitive motion thing?
Yeah. It is so painful, and so I get massages once a month. It's not relaxing massages, it's more so-
My massage therapist is an angel, and she took it upon herself to actually learn a lot about cubital tunnel, and she bought certain tools and stuff, and she works on my arms. I mostly go in to get my arms worked on, and it freaking hurts. It's not comfortable the entire time. Sometimes, I even bruise from it, but it relieves so much pain, and it's so necessary. I know a lot of my other colleagues have gotten surgeries for it. You have to get, a lot of people get carpal tunnel surgery, or cubital tunnel surgery. I'm trying to avoid surgery at this point, because I don't have health insurance, and it's just scary. If I can do other things to help it out in the meantime, why wouldn't I? That's just another, I guess, that's another expense. Your body falls apart, and people tell you early on in your career, there's so many certain things that you can do, while you're working, to hold your body, to prevent those injuries from happening. But I think we lose sight of that the longer you are doing hair, and so you start doing hair.
Well, anything you're doing, you can mitigate it, but if you're in a certain position all day-
Yeah, there's not much you can do.
Yeah. No amount of yoga or whatever.
Is there a cut-off date for, past certain age, you can't, people can't do this anymore, or with as much frequency?
I think so. I think that's why, you don't see a lot of 70-year old hairstylist.
You can't last too long.
Do you see yourself having vivid hair your entire life till you're like 100?
I like weirdly do.
Yeah. I feel it would be weird, if you didn't like.
It would be weird.
Yeah. Maggie, thank you you so much for talking to me today. This has been a total delight.
Of course. This is fun. Thanks for having me.
Other Peoples's Pockets is written and hosted by me, Maya Lau. It's produced by me, along with Joy Sanford, and Dan Gallucci. Production helped by Angela Vain. Our mix engineer is Dan Gallucci. Our executive producers are me, Maya Lau, along with Jane Marie, and Dan Gallucci. Special thanks to Divorced Dads doing their best. Other People's Pockets is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show, consider subscribing to Pushkin+ offering bonus content, and ad-free listening across our network for $4.99 a month. Look for the Pushkin+ channel on Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. You can sign up for Pushkin newsletters at pushkin.fm. You can find Maggie on Instagram @hairnirvana.