W. Kamau Bell
W. Kamau Bell is a Peabody Award winner, 4X Emmy Award winner, documentary filmmaker, stand-up comedian, Celebrity Jeopardy! champion, Official Ambassador of the band Fishbone, self-proclaimed #1 Bruce Lee Expert…
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The interview opens with Kamau giving flowers to fellow documentary filmmaker Bao Nguyen and praising the breadth and quality of his work. Kamau recounts first meeting Bao through the Bruce Lee documentary “Be Water,” then being surprised by the announcement of “The Greatest Night in Pop”, which he attended with Tom Morello. Kamau was also excited and a bit jealous upon learning Bao was making a Jimi Hendrix documentary.
The conversation turns to Bao’s filmmaking philosophy, particularly his serious approach to cinematography, rooted in his background as a photographer. Both discuss the collaborative nature of working with cinematographers and the deliberate visual choices made in each film.
They then discuss “The Stringer” in depth, a film investigating the true authorship of the iconic “Napalm Girl” photograph from the Vietnam War. Bao reflects on the challenge of disrupting a celebrated narrative within the Vietnamese American community, acknowledging a generational divide over whether to confront or leave such histories undisturbed.
Discussion moves to “The Greatest Night in Pop,” covering the making of “We Are the World.” Bao explains his initial skepticism about the song’s corniness, but a chance encounter with a Vietnamese taxi driver playing it convinced him of its universal resonance. He framed the film as a heist story rather than a standard music documentary. Notably, Sheila E’s candid account of feeling sidelined during the recording session highlights Bao’s commitment to honesty.
The interview closes with a discussion of “BTS: The Return,” a fly-on-the-wall film that follows BTS as they record an album after military service. He recommends documentaries including “Stop Making Sense,” “Minding the Gap,” “Hoop Dreams,” “Shirkers,” and “Mistress Dispeller”.
Donate to the IRC at help.rescue.org and Boat People SOS at bpsos-cca.org
Who’s With Me is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Chris Dowd. Distributed by Pushkin Industries.
Hey everybody, what's up? It's me, W. Kamau Bell. Welcome to Who's With Me, the podcast hosted by me, W. Kamau Bell. Today is episode 19. I'm talking to my friend, Bowen. We'll talk about him in a little bit. First of all, just a reminder, this podcast, Who's With Me, is based on my sub stack, Who's With Me. Please sign up for my sub stack right now. It's the best way to stay in contact with me. Although I'm happy that you've joined me wherever you have found the podcast. On Substack, you'll really be able to stay in direct contact with me. And if you pay for my Substack, you can talk to me. Because that's how capitalism works. Stand-up dates. This weekend, finally that date is coming. Stanford, Connecticut, September 25th and 26th. Close enough to New York City that you can make the trip if you're in New York City. Happy to see you. Four shows. Tickets still available. And then I'll be at Stanford University on October 1st. Bellingham, Washington, February 20th of next year, if next year is a thing that happens. Time will tell. Also, again, pre-order my debut children's book, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. I wrote with my friend Adam Mansback. If you go to Talk Shop Live and order it, you get a signed copy. You get an autographed copy if you order from Talk Shop Live. We'll put the links below. Book comes out October 27th. So that's coming up, everybody. What's going on this week? Oh, everything. So last week on Substack, the story that had captured America's attention and even the UK's attention and Ireland's attention and Palestinians' attention and Jewish people's attention. I guess the world's attention in some sense. The Macklemore-Ed Sheeran story. So I wrote in my sub stack basically what I said was Macklemore stood up to billionaires while Ed Sheeran stood down to billionaires. You know the story by now. You've heard it. But it just keeps moving. Last week, all I was really writing about is the fact that we can't let billionaires determine what free speech is. And Macklemore is sort of a complicated figure. Whenever you're a white rapper and you're not named Eminem, even Eminem is a complicated figure, but every other white rapper is just always like, but it just keeps moving. So the thing that has come out of it is that Ed Sheeran is sort of playing the babe in the woods role of like, I'm apolitical. Let's be clear. There's no such thing as apolitical. I don't even care that it's in the dictionary. People are like, there is, I can look. Just because it's in the dictionary doesn't mean it's real. Unicorn is a word that is also in the dictionary. It is not real. You're saying, I don't want to get involved. You're saying, I side with whoever is in charge. That's just the way it is. And I think that's important to note as we get ready for the midterms. Let's let all this be. Make sure you're ready to vote in the midterms coming up. Many places you can vote now. I would say go to vote.org to check your voter status. Also come with a voting plan. Also come with a plan to defeat fascism And so this past weekend, also, as many of you know, all of his openers left the tour, including his backing band, who was Irish backing band, left the tour. I don't know if you know this about Irish people, but they don't mess around. And Irish people, because of their history, are very clear about oppression for the most part. And so Ireland, as a country, has been pro-Palestinian liberation for a long time. And so they're really mad, being like, why aren't you with us? So apparently he's really... Whatever the blues Ed Sheeran is getting here in America, it's really coming bad from the UK and especially from Ireland, which I also know is its own separate. Ireland is its own country. I think that we have to understand that he's getting it from all sides. And so he did the tour. Apparently he did a show by himself at his most recent concert, and he opened with sort of a very, It felt like a very managed sort of a statement. It didn't feel like it was from the heart. Also, you could see he was reading it off of a teleprompter, which is fine. You can read off teleprompters, I understand. But it just made it not feel very heartfelt. And a lot of people are tearing that apart. It felt like a combination of a publicist and chat GPT coming together to write that statement. And at the end of the concert, which I saw this has been covered less, he actually then at the end of the concert apologized to his audience for the apology up front. Like he's like, I'm sorry I had to bring that up. I know you just want to come here and hear me sing. So it's just weird also like apologizing for the apology. And again, if you think he's getting the blues here in this country, just go on YouTube and look up like, you know, Irish Ed Sheeran response. You will see some Irish people giving Ed Sheeran the blues. And I wrote this piece last week and I got some feedback from Jewish people who are in my life and also people who support my sub stack who struggle with this issue. And of course, and I have Jewish people in my life who, don't struggle with it, who are anti-Zionist, who can say it's a genocide in Palestine, thinking about NATO Green, Adam Mansbach, who wrote a book with me, The Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. You'll be hearing more about us soon on this book tour that we are putting together. And that's who I have talked to a lot. I've also learned a lot from people online, like Linda Sarsour, who I know a little bit, Janan Matari, who I just know from being online, who's a very fervent and strong voice for Palestinian liberation. And I would encourage people to go check out you know, Jewish people who are anti-Zionist, but also check out Palestinians who have voices here just to hear, even if you're threatened by some of it, just to sort of take it in to go, this is a different perspective that I need to hear. So I'm not just relying on what I already know. That's all I would encourage. And some Jewish people I've talked to find the phrase free Palestine threatening because they're afraid of what comes, I guess, the how Palestine is going to get freed, like what that will involve. And let me say this. I understand you can feel however you want to feel about anything. I get that. You can be threatened by anything. I think when I hear that people are afraid of the phrase free Palestine, what it reminds me of is as a black person, every phrase we've come up with to say, America, treat us with our respect and give us our dignity. There's been some percentage of white Americans like that's too far, whether it's a black power. even just the phrase black power, people call black supremacy, say it loud. I'm black and I'm proud. You know, like that has the people think that sounds like black supremacy, which there's no such thing as black supremacy. Like it's just black pride. You know, even the phrase black pride, my favorite band living color has a song called pride that has a, uh, you know, that talks, that addresses this. And then down to like black people saying black lives matter, which was a phrase that was started by, uh, who was, was one of the people who started that phrase with my friend Alicia Garza. Um, Patrisse Cullors and Opal Tometi, that phrase, Black Lives Matter, very quickly some white people were like, what are you saying, white lives don't matter? So there becomes a thing that happens, I will just speak from the black perspective, where we're like, what is the thing we can say that you don't find threatening that also gets us to our citizenship and rights as humans in this country? Also, I don't just want a catchphrase, I want liberation, I want freedom, I want rights and privileges as a human. And I think that's <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> <HAL> I think that's all this is about. But I do understand, as I've heard from Jewish people in my life and Jewish people online, that they get a lot of fear because, yes, Jewish people certainly have been an oppressed group in the history of the world. So I'm not in any way arguing with that. So stop anti-Semitism, full stop. Also, Palestinian freedom. I'm not trying to change it from free Palestine. I'm just trying to say, let's give Palestinians their liberation and their freedom. And I know we can have no anti-Semitism and Palestinian liberation in the same world. Just like I know we can have black power, black pride, black lives can matter and white lives can continue to matter at the same time. And I'm going to take it back to the black community. So last week, Converse released an ad. And when I first saw it online, I was like, I don't even understand that. Is this real? That, that to many eyes and especially black eyes, looks like it's an allusion to like the KKK and lynching. And when I first saw it, and if you haven't seen it, just pull it up. And I know I've sort of, I've sort of, uh, colored the ad for, you know, pun intended. But when I first saw it, I was like, this can't be real. I'd like, it just, I didn't even look at it and go, cause I saw something that said, this is a racist ad. And I didn't even have time to even decide if it was racist ad. Cause I was just physically just like repelled by it. By the way, the ad is laid out. There's a white triangle that is made of cloth that sort of looks reminiscent of a, clan hood and then there's next to that uh clan hood reminiscence there's two converse shoes that look like they're just dangling in space because the way the ad is lit and it just looks like feet next to a clan hood and i know that it is not that apparently and i had to really dig to find out what is this it's apparently a woman in a white in a white skirt and she's holding the converse but it is lit in such a way in the ways i've seen it where it does not it It struck me as as a, like an artful lynching photo, like, like an art piece on lynching and Converse has since apologized. But a lot of people have said that doesn't look like a lynching photo. And I get, it's like a Rorschach test or, or like a, like, what do you see here? Like that? There's that, uh, optical illusion where if you look at it this way, it looks like an old lady. If you look at it this way, it looks like a young woman. And the idea being that like, depending on how you look at it, You see something different. But all of how you're looking at it is your history of humanity being informed. And for black people right now, I think we see lynching specifically. Maybe we'd see it at any point in time. But right now, in 2026, there have been 10 black people found hanging dead from trees in this year alone. Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley joined with 59 other lawmakers and legislatures to step forward to say we need to investigate this. They want the government to investigate why black people are ending up hanging from trees. Because this country has a history of lynching black people, full stop. And it never really stopped. It just was like, we don't want to get back to where it's a common occurrence. So right now, a lot of black people are thinking about lynching in a way we haven't thought about as far as an active thing that's happening now. And then this thing comes out from Converse. And it sparks so many questions. First of all, apparently a black guy was in charge or was a part of this campaign. But this is why DEI needs to be back. It's not about having one black person there to sort of weigh in on black issues. It's about having a bunch of different black people in positions of power to weigh in. So they can all have a black conversation about like, this seems like, because I'm sure they had a lot of black people in position of power. There'd been at least one who said, can I pull your coat for a second? Because this is what I see. We're in dire times. I think in some sense, you know, when Macklemore steps on stage and says, Free Palestine, and I love you, my Jewish brothers and sisters, a lot of how that lands depends on where you're coming to this issue. And so I think when I see some people say the photo of black people, the converse ad doesn't look like lynching. It's like, because you're not coming to this in the same way that many of us are where I think about my black life every day. And how I have to avoid situations or protect myself or always be aware that anything could pop off at any time. And I'm not saying because where I live is dangerous. I'm saying because I live in America and America is dangerous. Let's just take a deep breath. Because I really want you to enjoy this conversation with my guest, Bao Nguyen. Bao is a great person. I actually met him during the lead up to The first doc of his I'd ever seen. It was not his first documentary, but the first doc I saw. During the days of the pandemic, when the Bruce Lee doc came out, Bewater, Bao directed that. And I ended up being a part of the promotion of that doc, even though I was not in it, just because, as you know from this podcast, I love Bruce Lee. And so I was like, I saw the doc and thought it was so beautiful. I was like, whatever you need me to do, I'll do. We became friends through that. And then we would see each other at all sorts of different film festivals, Sundance we've hung out. And Then, out of nowhere, he dropped The Greatest Night in Pop, which I say out of nowhere, we talk about it here, which is a documentary about the making of the song We Are the World, which is just very totally different, both about celebrity, but one is about a lot of celebrities, and one is about a celebrity who is, one celebrity who's an icon, and also Vows, an Asian American man, had feelings about Bruce Lee, and he talks about with We Are the World, he didn't even remember We Are the World, because he was born, I think, two years after it came out. So, there's that. And then, recently, Bao has dropped two docs, almost back-to-back, The Stringer on Netflix, which is a deep, journalistic, and compelling documentary about one of the most famous photos in the history of all time. The photo is called The Terror of War, but you may know it more commonly by Napalm Girl. It depicts a naked nine-year-old Vietnamese girl running away from a napalm attack during the Vietnamese War in Vietnam. And this doc is about figuring out, is it an investigation into who took the photo? Because the person who's credited with taking the photo is not necessarily the person who took the photo. And so Bao is waiting to the deep end as a Vietnamese person to sort of say, I'm going to confront a thing that our culture may not want me to confront. Um, as far as like, cause the guy who took the photo has had a, his whole life changed because he was this famous photographer. And yet there might, this film is saying, we think somebody else took it who did not get the credit they deserve. Um, during the podcast, we also talk about his up, one of his up and coming projects, which is, an authorized documentary about Jimi Hendrix, and I talk about how that makes me jealous, but I also love Bowie. He's a great filmmaker. He's going to do a great job. And, of course, we talk about his latest documentary on Netflix, BTS, The Return, the documentary that covers the return of the globally famous, it's funny to describe who BTS is. BTS is probably the most famous collection of seven people in the world. They are a K-pop band. And they took a break while they did military service, and the doc covers their return while they record their new album, Ararang, which I'm sure I did not say as correctly as I could have. But anyway, we have to talk about the pressure of being a documentary filmmaker who wades into very sort of like complicated subject that people have a lot of intensity of feelings about. Think about it. This dude has done Bruce Lee, BTS, We Are the World, this famous, one of the most famous photos of all time, and he's doing Jimi Hendrix. So bow down. is not afraid. He just weighs in and is very artful about all of his work. So please enjoy my conversation with Bao. Hey, thanks for watching an episode of Who's With Me. If you're on YouTube, please like and subscribe, share, hit that hype button. I hear it makes all the difference. Please like, subscribe, share, hit the hype button. Thank you. Don't give up. How you doing, sir? I'm good. So I start every episode off by giving people their flowers, because that's a part of this whole thing, is that not only do I want to have conversations with people I respect, people I admire, people I love, and you fight into all those categories. And I just find you, especially as we met through Bewater, and like, great, I love that film. I love Bruce Lee. This guy did a good job. And then I remember the day on Instagram when it was announced you were doing The Greatest Night in Pop. And I was like, whoa.
16:19
Speaker 2
You called me Beyonce.
16:20
Speaker 1
Did I?
16:20
Speaker 2
You're like, I'm just dropping like lemonade and Renaissance out of nowhere.
16:25
Speaker 1
That's what it was. Cause it was like, it was, there was no sort of like, he's working on this. There's he's, I didn't know. And we're not, you know, I didn't know. And so suddenly it was like, it's coming out, whatever it was soon. It's a, and then I went to the premiere. My date was Tom Morello, which was funny. Cause I don't even know Tom Morello that well, but I just thought he seems like he'd like to go to this. And so.
16:45
Speaker 2
What was his thoughts on the film? I don't feel like Tom Morello would have been a huge fan of that song.
16:51
Speaker 1
No, he's a huge fan of music. He's one of those dudes who just loves music, and so absolutely. I just remember we both walked out enjoying it. I can't give you a quote for the poster, but we both walked. We went and had a drink afterwards, and we talked about it a lot. I think he's a big fan of the history of music, and he's a big fan of musicians caring. We are the world as musicians caring. Of course, I feel like I remember a lot of laughter at the Bob Dylan part. I mean, you, you know, so yeah, we'll talk about that in a second, but like, so then that happened. And then I know I found out that it was not, you were working on the Jimi Hendrix documentary, which was the first time I was ever mad at you. That was the first time I ever felt like, oh, I didn't even know that was a thing that was out there. So, but also like excited for you, like 5% mad, 95% excited. Cause I was like, he's, he's, I just think you're a great filmmaker. And so I was happy to know that you had it. I was happy to know that documentary was in the hands of a good person. And then I think you're working on that. And then suddenly the stringer, again, drops like a Beyonce album, as far as I could tell, which is this incredible, hardcore, journalistic expose about the most famous photo out of the Vietnam War. What's the name of the photo?
18:00
Speaker 2
Well, the technical name is Terror of War, but most people know it as a Napalm Girl photograph.
18:05
Speaker 1
One of the most famous photos in history, but certainly the most famous photo from the Vietnam War. And a very rigorous... uh, film about who took that photo. And as a member of the Vietnamese diaspora, you're sort of saying this thing that we think is true may not be true. Um, so you have to sort of take a chance there. And I'm like, man, that it was super intense, super rigorous, felt like in the best way possible, like a procedural thriller. That was a documentary. Like it felt like it could have been George Clooney in the middle of it. Like it was very directed in a very narrative driven way. And then I'm like, good for him for doing that. And then you just drop the BTS The Return. So now I'm like, okay, so this dude is doing multiple things at once all the time. And I get accused of that. But the things you're doing are also multiple films at the same time. I just really admire your bandwidth and capacity to put out quality work. And across, like, it's not all the same thing. It's not all like you're not doing the same thing over and over again.
19:05
Speaker 2
No, I mean, before we started this conversation, I was going to ask you, like, how do you juggle so many different things at once? Because, you know, you have this podcast now. You have so many television shows that you've done.
19:17
Speaker 1
You direct.
19:18
Speaker 2
You direct films. And we run into each other so randomly. I was like, of course Kamau's there.
19:25
Speaker 1
Yeah.
19:26
Speaker 2
And you have a family. I don't have a family. Well, that explains a lot of the time you have. But I have a very supportive partner. I think with documentary films especially, I learned early on that the beauty of documentary is like you're kind of given permission to be into allowed into these worlds that you wouldn't have no other reason to be in right like being hanging out with Lionel or doing something on Bruce Lee and now you know having done a film about like an investigative film like it's it's almost like how actors like to be actors because they can live in different lives and for us we get to tell the story of of the world and society and individuals that, you know, we aren't necessarily a part of.
20:15
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think that, but also you have to have the curiosity to want to be a part of these different places. Cause you could easily just be like, no, no, no. I just do one thing, you know? Yeah.
20:23
Speaker 2
I mean, I think for me, it's like, as a filmmaker, as a director, it's like, how do I make this a bow wind film? This is the bow wind film about we are the world. This is a bow wind film about BTS. And that's, I think that's important for us is like to have a distinct voice and around all these different subjects.
20:41
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think that's the thing I've noticed from watching the, like, I haven't seen everything. Also went to your IMDb. I was like, I didn't realize there was all this. I had, I had missed before be water. Um, but like that, there is a distinct style that you have that I see in all the films. One of those is like, you don't play around with cinematography. He takes cinematography very seriously in a way that I, as a director, uh, hand it over to somebody and let them do those things. But also I think about, I really noticed it in the stringer. Like you really, like really beautiful establishing shots of like now we're in a different city, not just like Los Angeles on the screen, but like, and the same thing happened in BTS, like these really beautiful shots of the places where you're filming to, to sort of give us the sense. And I think this is what partially contributes to it feeling like, you know, it's funny to say it, it's not just documentary, it's a film, you know what I mean?
21:36
Speaker 2
I hate when people say that.
21:37
Speaker 1
I know, I know. I'm trying not to say that, but that's the thing I'm feeling is that like, it is very clear that like you care about cinematography a lot because you want your films to actually be beautiful and to be emotion and be emotional.
21:48
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, we work in a visual medium, right. And, um, I, I've always been someone who thought about how an image tells a story and what an articulate image is.
21:58
Speaker 1
Right.
21:59
Speaker 2
And, nowadays when people you're fighting for people's attention, like for people to give you 90 minutes to two hours of their time, like you better earn that as, as a filmmaker. And so every frame to me matters. Um, and you know, deep collaboration with my cinematographers when I'm picking a frame, it's something that we talk about. And before the frame is even, you know, shot that day, it's like, what, how do we approach this? How do we, is this going to be handheld? Is this going to be just like locked off or, like the stringer, for instance, like using still photography and the idea of stillness and like life passing through a frame and using, you know, tripod as much as possible because like understanding like what a still frame can articulate. And then, yeah, with BTS too, like slow zooms, just creating the sense of tension and release. And I think, yeah, I, I, before I was a filmmaker, I was a photographer. And then I think that obviously I inherit that, that love for visual storytelling, but I do think, yeah, it's a deep collaboration when I'm not shooting the deep collaboration with the camera operators and my cinematographers, like Caleb Heller, Andrew, you eat your own rail flavors. I'm just going to give them some shine.
23:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, for sure. For sure. So are you one of those directors? Like, are you, when you're directing, are you, just on set watching or do you ever go, let me get that camera so I can actually get the shot I need?
23:29
Speaker 2
I've done that many times for sure.
23:31
Speaker 1
I got the feeling. I just felt like some of your shots are so specific and precise. It seems like, and I know directors like that. I'm thinking about Mo Fallon who I work with on United Shades and who came from the Bourdain world and I was on sets with him when he would be telling a camera person what to do and he'd be like, just let me just, you know, which was not meant to insult their skills but just to be like, I see a certain thing and I need to get it.
23:52
Speaker 2
Yeah, you're just trying to be efficient. You just want to make your day and it's like, It's quicker for me to just take the camera and then have to do three versions of this.
24:01
Speaker 1
And then not get the thing ultimately that you wanted. Yeah.
24:05
Speaker 2
And then when I carry the camera, I'm like, holy shit, this is heavy. Maybe I'll do one version of it.
24:11
Speaker 1
Well, see, it's funny because me as a director, I could take the camera from a camera person, but I wouldn't know what to do with it. Those aren't the skills I had. I've always sort of said, I'm like Alfred Hitchcock. because he apparently never touched a camera. But I just sort of feel like I had to sort of give myself permission to not do that because all the film people I'd worked with had come through being camera people and cinematographers. And I had to be like, when I was directing, like, am I allowed to just ask people for things and just say, can you do this? And also I found for me, a lot of it is like turning over things and going, I know this is where your skills are, so I'm not going to like, I'm not going to hyper-manage you here, so. And then the things I really want, focusing on those. Yeah. Yeah.
24:49
Speaker 2
I mean, every director is different. It's just empowering your crew to do the best work that they can.
24:54
Speaker 1
Sure. So I want to ask you about a specific shot in the stringer. There's a shot that I remember because I did a Q & A with you after there was a screening of it in San Francisco. And I remember there was a shot of incense. Do you know the shot I'm talking about?
25:07
Speaker 2
Where it breaks?
25:08
Speaker 1
Yes.
25:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
25:09
Speaker 1
And I was like, damn, did this guy set up a camera for like this? I just felt like a very– because it was also broke. It was like a very intentional break and it worked with the edit. And I thought that's how the level of attention this guy has is that he's like filming this incense until it breaks.
25:28
Speaker 2
Yeah, there's like a patience you have to have in documentary, right? Like you can't just expect it to happen. That's the difference between fiction, like narrative scripted where you make it happen. But in documentary, you wait for it to happen. And so having that patience is important. It's funny you mentioned that shot because, yeah, that shot was in many different versions of the film. And there was a version where the story in that shot is Janie, who is Ngay, the stringer's daughter, is talking about the divorce that her parents went through because of the tumult of that photograph. And then they got a divorce. And there's a version where it actually doesn't break the the piece of incense.
26:14
Speaker 1
And um.
26:16
Speaker 2
And then one of our editors had one where it broke and then our we had two editors and uh graham taylor our uh main editor was like it's corny that it breaks and i was like sometimes it's just like you know just let it be it's corny yeah like it's not to you it's corny but there's a symbolism and you I mean you're bringing up the exact moment and so I think it touches people a certain way and for me like I always I sort of hate being in an edit too long because I get numb to all these decisions and all these this footage that we've seen over and over again so like when the first time I see something that's always like I think about my instinct and what I felt the first time and I write that down because you can never replicate the first time you saw something. But if you see it like eight times, you're like, what am I watching anymore? And that's why it's great to have fresh eyes. But I remember the first time I'm seeing that shot with that, you know, narration and feeling like, oh, it felt right. And then after the seventh time, it could feel corny.
27:18
Speaker 1
It feels corny, but the audience is probably not going to see it seven times, maybe a few of them, but most of them are going to see it once and it's going to just land the way it landed first time. So just for people who don't know, The Stringer is about the attribution of that photo being given to one person And the film, there's a journalist in the film and a lot of investigation by photographers who say it could not have been that person who took the film, took the photo. It's another person who took the photo. And it's meaningful in the film because the person whose name is on the photo has had a completely, you know, blessed life since then as far as like career change, been able to become a famous photographer. And the person who maybe the film argues did take the photo has lived in obscurity and has not had the blessings that that photo would have brought. Exactly, yeah. And I'm just giving up all that setup because I remember watching it and also feeling like, oh, I was about to go through a little bit of what I went through on Cosby. Just that they're going to be Vietnamese people who are like, why are you ruining this thing? Why are you doing this? What's the point of this? I don't know. I don't know. I believe you did that happen. Did you get some pushback from your community?
28:24
Speaker 2
I mean, rightfully so, because even before I took on the project, I had to interrogate that within myself, whether or not I wanted to disrupt this narrative of, you know, the most famous photograph taken in during the Vietnam war. And it was awarded to a Vietnamese American, you know, the Pulitzer prize and the world press photo award. Um, and someone who I looked up to, um, you know, the Vietnamese American creative community is quite small. And so, um, to think that that narrative was untrue and to disrupt that possible achievement was scary. But at the same time, you know, exploring this idea that another Vietnamese American could have taken it and what his life, as you said, was very different from the life that Nicolette, who was credited for the photograph, had. And so I think as a filmmaker who has some agency and is able to share stories to a wider audience. I thought this is a responsibility and a burden in many ways, but to be able to share someone else's perspective is a privilege too, right? We're in a very privileged position to to shine a light on voices who have been talking for a long time but no one's been listening in many ways um and so yeah i just thought about the thousands of vietnamese who have these secrets and stories that they carry with them very quietly especially when they come to a new country and feel like they have no no um representation or no agency to tell their story and so um you know whatever the truth is just giving ngay the opportunity to share his perspective because there's no denying that he was on there on that day on the ground in a position to take the photograph had a camera yet his perspective has been Denied for 50 plus years.
30:25
Speaker 1
And what's his name? It's Nick.
30:27
Speaker 2
Wintunye is the stringer's name. And then Nicklett is the credited photographer.
30:33
Speaker 1
And was there a moment in the middle of this coming out that you felt like, oh, maybe I went too far this time?
30:41
Speaker 2
I mean, like after doing a film about Bruce Lee and we are the world are pretty like, uh, easy topics. So just going into this one, I knew going into it, it'd be a very different beast. Uh, but you know, to answer your previous question, like I can understand sort of the pushback and wanting to not disrupt. And I think there's a generational divide too among, you know, uh, Vietnamese of my parents or older generation who sort of want like, um, let sleeping dogs lie. And that's totally fair. And I want to hear that and understand that perspective more because they've gone through such trauma and they don't want to unearth these things. But I think for like a generation like mine who feel like we're always trying to confront our trauma, right? And that might not be the right way too. It's just our way. And so I think just like, again, allowing all these perspectives to be heard And then letting the conversation and dialogue and debate play out on its own is what I always seek. And that's what's happened. And so, yeah, just, again, allowing people to have their voices heard.
31:55
Speaker 1
I guess, yeah, I guess I'm underestimating, and as soon as you said this, I guess, that directing, that of course directing the Bruce Leaf documentary, which is now become the definitive. There's been a ton of Bruce Lee documentaries.
32:08
Speaker 2
I don't like to be, you know, for me, it's like when something's called definitive, it makes it seem like there's no other film that can come out. And for me, it's like, I don't make definitive films. I make maybe definitive about when film, but not the definitive Bruce Lee film, not the definitive. We are the world film. I want people, I think there's in the past, there have been filmmakers who go around saying, I don't know if you've ever said it.
32:30
Speaker 1
No, no, no. I've never said it.
32:31
Speaker 2
But there are filmmakers in the past, like this is the definitive Civil War film or this is the definitive XYZ films. Like how does that, in the tradition of storytelling and mythology, how does that open up other storytellers and perspectives to tell the same subject but through their own lens? And I think that's important for us to like, allow other storytellers to, to do this. Like I'm making a Jimi Hendrix film and I expect that I should not be the only person ever making a Jimi Hendrix film. The family, you know, I had a conversation with the family. It's a very specific time of his life. I think as soon as we say definitive, it closes up, you know, the world and perspective of storytelling that I think it's gotten us into a lot of trouble in the past.
33:21
Speaker 1
No, I guess that's true. I guess I say that as a, As you know, you've heard me say this so many times, it's got to be annoying, but as America's preeminent Bruce Lee scholar, non-Asian division, that I've seen a lot of Bruce Lee documentaries, and that was the first one that had a real fresh approach that I'd seen. And of course, they all mean different things to me because I saw them at different times in my life. So certainly as a teenager, seeing the ones that were just sort of mashed together, archival and some sort of some sort of narrator who's saying, and this is why Bruce Lee, you know, that was, I needed that at the time. I needed something. So I understand that. What was, if you know, or maybe we've talked about, if you can share, how did the Jimi Hendrix estate figure out that you were the guy?
34:03
Speaker 2
I mean, it actually is a bit of kismet like with Bruce Lee.
34:06
Speaker 1
That's what I was wondering. There's a Seattle connection between Bruce Lee.
34:09
Speaker 2
They had the same birthday, different birth dates.
34:12
Speaker 1
Yes. Yes. Same birthday.
34:14
Speaker 2
Yeah. And Linda went to Garfield and, jimmy went to garfield oh wow um so you know for us we're like myth makers storytellers so we're like well obviously that's a good reason enough to tell that story and so yeah i think that connection and um definitely like it helped me believe that i can tell this story were they.
34:36
Speaker 1
In seattle at the same time because i know bruce was only there for a little bit uh jimmy was gone.
34:41
Speaker 2
Yeah yeah that early 50s, early 60s, yeah.
34:45
Speaker 1
Okay, so it's just funny to think, because I think about this with Bruce having lived in Oakland.
34:50
Speaker 2
You know, Quincy Jones went to Garfield too, so I think I'm just going to go to the Garfield yearbook and pick my next film.
34:56
Speaker 1
Who else? That's funny. Yeah, that's funny. You've touched on all these. Yeah, maybe your whole thing is Pacific Northwest films. Because I think it's interesting to think that when I think about Bruce Lee having lived in Oakland, he didn't live here that long, but he was here. That there had to be a time where him and like young, like future Black Panthers were like crossing paths without realizing it, even though there's not footage of them together, you know, just because they were all in the same, Bruce was hanging out with Black dudes, which was a big deal back then, especially for an Asian dude. Yeah. These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health. And we've all gone down an internet rabbit hole exploring the latest health trends and Your social media feed is packed with wellness advice telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? And what's just wrong? That's exactly what Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy-nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel, and YouTube, talks to health influencers, real people, and most importantly, doctors. in order to separate fact from fiction. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Listen to Health vs. Hype on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So we have the stringer, which I said is this very deep investigation that in some sense it seems like Because you weren't actually doing the investigation, you were sort of cataloging it, correct? So you were sort of cataloging this thing that's happening, but in a very artful way, which is very different from like The Greatest Night in Pop, where you have to sort of like do the journalism, and I'm using, as far as like, you have to assemble the people to tell the stories. When that came to you after Be Water, what I would imagine that they're probably talking to a lot of people. What, and as you said a lot, you're not like of the age where you would have grown up on, we are the world in the same way that I'm of the age where like I grew up on, we are the world, you know? So what was, what was your, how did you take, how did you decide to take that on? Cause I could see a version of you be like, this is too, this.
37:12
Speaker 2
Is, I mean, that was a little original version of my like approach to it is that I was only two years old when the song came out. And whenever I, say that when Lionel's around, he always just like, why are you making me sound old? Um, uh, but I, um, obviously knew, know the song, knew the song very well. And after Be Water, um, me and my producer, Julia Nottingham, who had done Be Water, this was like right after, or right during the pandemic. This is like summer 2020 when we were trying to figure out like, what type of film do we want to make next? And knowing that we, knowing we weren't going to get into production anytime soon. Let's look for stories that have happened. And also like the sense of nostalgia. Like, I don't know what you were watching during the pandemic, but I was like watching a lot of things from like the late eighties, early nineties. Cause like it's something familiar to me and I didn't know what the outside world was going to become. So it was like this warm blanket. And to many people where the world is a warm blanket.
38:15
Speaker 1
For sure. Yeah.
38:16
Speaker 2
And so, But I'm always like, am I the best person to tell this story? I'm always interrogating because, again, I feel like it's such a privilege to be able to tell these stories. I should earn that privilege. And, yeah, it took a while for me to get into it because, I mean, frankly, and I said this before, the song was a bit corny to me. It's a corny song.
38:40
Speaker 1
Corny comes up again in our interview. I mean, it was meant to be a corny song. Even when they talk about writing it, They're trying to write an anthem, which is inherently a corny idea. Like, you know, that you're like, we want to write a big, but again, there's a place for corn.
38:53
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly. I think it's unifying corn.
38:58
Speaker 1
Corny, things are corny for a reason because they hit you in a certain place. And it's only, I think things, corny is becoming, I mean, it is inherently sort of, like sort of sounds negative because it feels like it's trying to be something. It's trying to be saccharine.
39:12
Speaker 2
Sure.
39:12
Speaker 1
But also.
39:14
Speaker 2
There's an innocence to it. It takes you back to a time where you weren't so jaded and sort of cynical about life. And so, I mean, I think Bruce Springsteen was like my perfect sort of vessel, in my opinion, of what I thought the song was. It was like, you know, the song was what it was. It was a tool. It did what it needed to do. I was like, that's exactly how I feel that song. That being said, I talked to a lot of friends who grew up at that time and what that song meant to them. And they're like, that song was like everything. And it was everywhere. And it wasn't until I, my parents realized And.
39:50
Speaker 1
The eighties were a corny decade. Yeah.
39:52
Speaker 2
Looking back at the eighties, everything's going to be viewed through that perspective. Um, but you know, I, my parents are refugees from Vietnam and they, they lived in America for a long time since, um, for about 10 years now they've been back in Vietnam. So I went to visit them when I was like still figuring out whether or not I should make this film. And I get into a taxi cab, 70 year old taxi cab driver, Vietnamese speaks no English. He asked me if I, if he can play some music, I'm like, sure. He puts in a mix CD, the first song, you know, that the opening melody that we are, the world is so iconic. I was like, there's no way he's playing. We are the world right now. And you know, he plays it. And once the song is done, I'm like, why did you play? He's like, basically in Vietnamese, that song's a banger. So it's like, that song has like, you know, it, it means so much to people all around the world. And I wanted to like, understand that, but on, kind of a visceral and intimate level. I didn't want to make a film that was like talking about like sort of like the history of celebrity charity songs and, and all this. I wanted to be like, that's why it's called the greatest night in pop. It's like about one night and like how they made that song. And for me, even hearing the story of how they made it was so interesting. And it felt like a heist film to me. It's like Ocean's 11. Danny Ocean is Lionel Quincy's. I was trying to figure out like who Michael is and, It's so funny. We didn't include this in the movie, but I think it was Lionel or David Breskin who literally wrote the book on We Are the World. It's like, who is Michael in the heist genre? And they're like, he's like the blonde, beautiful woman in the red dress that distracts everyone. That's funny.
41:36
Speaker 1
That's funny.
41:37
Speaker 2
But anyways, I could, again, make this into a Bowen film because it could be a heist film. It's not like Jester- typical behind the music and then it still touched so many people and i still to this day i mean before we started recording you told me you watch it with your children and i have people come up to me it's like i watched it with my parents i watched with my grandparents so to like make something that's so joyful nowadays i think it's a you know we try to work in the realm of trying to make impact and like make impact doesn't mean just um highlighting sort of people who are distant is that's a very big part of it, but bringing joy to people is like so hard nowadays. So to be able to do that, I think it's a great sort of act of resistance in many ways.
42:24
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think that, you know, you also had to find something that was, that made it more than just behind the music. And I think about two things that when people talk about that film sort of things that you see clips of one is, and we'll probably see this for as, is Stevie Wonder teaching Bob Dylan how to sing like Bob Dylan, which is just such a, like, a great sort of window into creative people, and also to sort of go, oh, so Stevie Wonder's even more of a genius.
42:50
Speaker 2
That's like Stevie Wonder picking up the camera, telling him, let me show you how to do this. I'm not comparing myself to Stevie Wonder.
42:57
Speaker 1
He's like, Bob, let me show you how to do Bob Dylan. And Bob Dylan doing it, and then being able to find his place in this. Again, in this song, I'm sure Bob Dylan's like, this is cheesy, you know what I mean? Uh, or, or corny. I'm sorry. I'm using the wrong word. And then the story of, and I say this cause we're here in Oakland of Sheila E. Of feeling like she was basically used as a way to get to Prince as cause who, who was the other biggest star in the world at that point was so important. And I could definitely see a version of the film where one of your producers would be like, no, no, no, not that part. We're not including that. That makes this night sound like it was less than perfect. Yeah. And so, but, and yet when I watched it sitting next to Tom Morello, I was like, good job, Bao. You know what I mean? For not shying away from the fact that it wasn't all just people eating chicken and high-fiving and getting autographs. There's also some music industry politics happening here that affected Sheila E. And she was at the premiere. So I thought even the fact that she feels good enough about her place in it to come to the premiere is something.
43:56
Speaker 2
Yeah, and her and Lionel hugged it out. I remember when we did the interview with Sheila and you know, we did pre-interviews. We talked about what, you know, the film was about and she told us her experience, which she didn't tell us that in the pre-interview. So when she told us that story on the day, like I was, my heart was sinking for her and she was in, you know, we shot all the interviews in the actual recording studio that happened. So she's like looking around, like kind of feeling, I don't think she had been back.
44:27
Speaker 1
She's not having the, I'm home like Lionel is.
44:30
Speaker 2
Exactly.
44:30
Speaker 1
Yeah.
44:30
Speaker 2
She's like, this is, this felt like a little weird to me. And, Um, yeah, to her credit, like she was very honest and open about that. And I think for me, I'm always just trying to make an honest film.
44:43
Speaker 1
Uh, it might.
44:45
Speaker 2
Feel like sort of, uh, you know, even though films are positive and they're still complex in their honesty.
44:54
Speaker 1
Right.
44:55
Speaker 2
And it's like, I never try to shy away from that. And so, yeah, having Sheila talk about that and to Lionel's credit too, like, you know, he was a producer on the film.
45:03
Speaker 1
That's what I know. It's like, there's producers who could be like, we're not included.
45:07
Speaker 2
I was afraid that he would say something. He's like, that's how it happened. And so, uh, again, it's, I always say like, we should always push for honesty. Like we never want a film to be dishonest. Um, and so, yeah, that was great. And then Bob Dylan, he, when I started making the film, uh, you know, the last dance with a film that I thought about a lot and like, rodman going to vegas like these scenes that just stay in your mind like bob dylan is that to me like the scene with stevie and also just the we wanted bob dylan to have a whole arc i think there were a lot of memes about bob dylan from that night where he just looks like he's spaced out and there's there's no context to that and so what the film could do better than any of the memes is like give him a full arc like he comes into this and i think there's like a letterboxd review where someone says like Bob Dylan is like me at every group project in school. And so just like that thousand mile stare that he's giving, we all have that at certain moments in life. And even Bob Dylan has that.
46:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. What did I get myself into? Exactly. How do I survive this experience and how do I get out of here?
46:15
Speaker 2
Well, you know, when he finishes that line at the end, people are clapping and that is a really beautiful moment.
46:21
Speaker 1
And it's an iconic part of the song. So also one other thing I want to say about We Are The World, and this is about, you mentioned Bruce Springsteen. And this is something I felt for a long time. I don't know if I've ever said it out loud. I've said it to friends. Bruce Springsteen is one of our greatest talkers in mankind. Like, he is just a very good, like, speaker on what his world and that is in ways that I find if Bruce Springsteen is being interviewed, I will listen. And I'm like an okay Bruce. Like, Bruce Springsteen exists, and, you know, I get it. I'm not arguing against the music at all. He's done a lot of powerful things, especially specifically recently with Minneapolis. But I think he's as good a talker as he is a musician. I just find him, like you said, he's able to put things in a very succinct way that I really appreciate. When you have a film like that, you've got to find people who can tell the story well and interesting.
47:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, he's also a very busy guy. We had like 30 minutes with him, exactly, and he's like in and out.
47:16
Speaker 1
Did he come to the studio?
47:17
Speaker 2
No, no, he was like the one person that was like, y'all got to come to me.
47:21
Speaker 1
I'm like, okay, you're the boss.
47:23
Speaker 2
Literally. Um, and so we went to his studio in, in New Jersey and, um, yeah, he had, he was doing like a whole week at Fallon and he had just come back from Italy and he like gave us 30 minutes and it was like super, he's very concise person.
47:40
Speaker 1
And you used each of those 30 minutes.
47:42
Speaker 2
We pull, I mean, yeah, this is AI before AI.
47:45
Speaker 1
Sorry.
47:45
Speaker 2
We just extend, just kidding. Um, we use every single thing that he gave us.
47:50
Speaker 1
Um, Yeah, no, I mean, so he's basically no less busy now than he was then, for real, when he flew in from tour to go on vacation.
47:58
Speaker 2
Yeah, well, yeah, he said in the film that he never, like, does anything right after a tour. Like, that was the end of his tour, and he flew. And, I mean, this was like a rumor that he rented a car to drive to A & M. He's like, I didn't rent a car. I had a car. But, yeah, he just pulled up to– um, to, uh, A & M and, you know, it's Bruce Springsteen and people didn't expect, you know, people expected everyone from the American Music Awards because it was held that night to come over, but to fly over to record that song, uh, and then kill his verse was, uh, something that's very boss level.
48:38
Speaker 1
It's boss level. It's, it's, it's funny. The other thing about watching that with an 11 year old is you have to explain like Bruce Springsteen is so indicative of the 80s in a way that we don't have a person who's that age, who's that big. You know what I mean? Sort of of that style. So she was like, who is that guy? Basically, it's very clear why somebody like Michael Jackson is famous, because he looks like he's famous. You know what I mean? But then Bruce Springsteen walks in out of that car, and I just sort of contextualize who everybody was in the film for her, because she doesn't know any of these people. You know what I mean?
49:13
Speaker 2
There's a great... TikTok video, I think it's TikTok or somewhere on social media of this teacher who is going through the music video and explaining to her students, like, can you name this person? And when Stevie comes up, someone screams Kanye.
49:32
Speaker 1
That's funny. See, I think, yeah, that's funny. That's funny. So you made me do something I never thought I would ever do. I did a deep dive on BTS. So this is how much I respect you. So I knew who BTS was, of course, because I'm alive on the planet. And the great thing about BTS is that I found, I think I initially found out through BTS after I sort of knew that they were a thing in the world and they came to America before. But my like, I'm married to a white lady, means I got white nieces and nephews and my white blonde niece, huge member of the army. And so I knew them through her. It's like, I think they flew to LA to see the concert at one point. And so- but having never like really sort of like, where does, and I know there's this sort of like K-pop industry, of course, and I've heard a lot of talk about the K-pop industry. I follow Jane Lee on Instagram, who talks a lot about K-pop's connections to black culture. So I've sort of, in the discourse time, but then to watch your doc, and I also was like, even this is different than everything else he's done, because you really sort of put yourself in this as a fly on the wall. Like, I don't know, I sort of am curious about like, there was clearly a decision made to not do like interviews in chairs, There's not to do a birth, like sort of like we were born in 19 or 2000, probably that it, what, what was the creative process of that? And also clearly those dudes were in the middle of like trying to finish an album and probably did not have a lot of time. I'll have Bruce Springsteen to sit down and tell the whole story.
50:58
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I, I always like a challenge, like where I can bring in like my, filmmaking background into a new scenario and um this one was like oh this is a very present day film this is not a retrospective i've done a lot of films that where the events already happened and i think looking back at it like i'm sort of like many directors have like a guy complex and like we are control freaks and so if a story's already happened we can reshape that into what our story of that is right yeah this is like it's unfolding before your eyes but i think of like some of the films that I really love, especially from like the sixties, like old, you know, DA Penny Baker, Maisel brothers films where they're like just with the artists while they're on tour or like recording an album. And this was sort of like an ode to that, but for the, you know, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, uh, um, generation. And, um, and it's interesting cause like most documentaries like about sort of like celebrities or musicians nowadays, um, and my producer, Jane Chalk Cutler mentioned this to me when we were doing interviews together in Seoul. It's like, usually it's about the beginning of a career or the end of a career. It's rare that you're just like smack into the middle of someone's career nowadays. And so that was another interesting challenge is like, how do you tell the story of, you know, the biggest group band in the world? They've sold out like SoFi five nights in a row. And, um they've literally like yeah changed like i don't know if you knew like from back in the day um they um bts like donated like 1 million dollars to blm oh army matched that donation and army is the name of the fans yeah they're fan fandom um and so that's power like you know we talk about other artists. I don't want to, I don't want to get other artists coming after me, but like, uh, you know, how to activate your, your fans in a positive, empowering way.
53:08
Speaker 1
And also it's sort of, and how to sort of pay some respect to the fact that like, whether or not you grew up in Korea, the music you're doing is connected to black people.
53:17
Speaker 2
Totally.
53:18
Speaker 1
Yeah.
53:18
Speaker 2
I mean, all the best music is connected.
53:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. Fair. We can say that. But yeah, I think that like, and where, and I know this cause I, like I said, I don't follow in Jane Lee that like a lot of people, a lot of people in the K-pop industry aren't sort of making that connection.
53:31
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it's, I could say, you know, from my perspective in spending time with BTS, they're in deep sort of admiration and know sort of the path that they follow in many ways. It's hard to like say it explicitly sometimes, but in sort of, I think a lot of ways, like it's pretty obvious. But I would say, yeah, to do this film Um, and just be a fly on the wall and, um, yeah, be able to witness the creative process. Like it's sort of like greatest night in pop, but like a longer form version of that. And just to, I think what's so fascinating to me about them is how there's like a parallel to the diaspora and just being a hyphenated American that they have to represent, you know, being Korean to the world, but they're also like these global icons and there's like so much more weight that they have to carry. than other artists who just like, you know, make some hits. They're like, oh, we got to make hits and we got to represent Korea to the world. Like that's a lot of pressure.
54:38
Speaker 1
But also there's sort of an implicit, like we're representing Korea to the world, but we also want to, we want to connect to the world. Like all the, like all the conversation around, I mean, I thought it was so, again, I don't know if this was, this is the bow part of it, but like there's a part of the movie where they're working on a song and the song references a Korean folk song that is known to Koreans, and they're sampling it, and they talk about how much of the sample should we use. If we use too much, I think the word corny is used, that one of them feels like it might be. Corny is the theme of this.
55:11
Speaker 2
You're going to title this episode something.
55:13
Speaker 1
Bow-win is corny. No, I'm just kidding. But, like, how much of this we use, because it might feel like we're also, or it might feel like we're being too patriotic. Like, we're sort of, like, being too chest-beaty about our patriotism. But also, there's a sense of, like, If we don't use enough of it, are we hiding from it? And just that conversation there was so great for somebody like me who was like, first of all, I was like, seven of them? There's seven of them? I knew there was a lot of them, but for these seven young people, young men to sort of have this conversation while also right over their shoulders, somebody from record company being like, you got three days left. Or you gotta turn it in today. So like the fact that they take time to have conversations. And so can you talk about, was that, I guess this is my big question is like, how familiar were you with BTS before you got involved? Because imagine that you had to do a deep dive once you got in there.
56:08
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, I had been fans of them before the film started, but it was really when I got to see them live. I think anytime you experience a musician live, it just changes your whole perspective on them. And so I was fortunate enough to see them back when they did their run of shows at SoFi. And it's really funny. I joke about it now, but as a filmmaker, as a storyteller, you're thinking about mythologies and what are things from the past that you connect to the current day. And they had these long conversations with their fans during the concert, and they were all about to go off to military service. So yeah, the film is about them returning from military service to record this album. And when they were having this conversation with their fans, like the fans were just like, it was the loudest concert I've ever been to. I've been to like Rage Against the Machine, I've been to Camarello's Props, but like some loud concerts. But I've never heard screaming at a pitch at that level. It's also the pitch of the screaming is different. Yeah, yeah.
57:09
Speaker 1
But it was beautiful.
57:10
Speaker 2
And I, for me, it felt like almost like a Greek myth, like a Homeric myth of the odyssey where it's like you have, uh, BTS, they're like Odysseus and, uh, armies like Penelope, just like waiting for their heroes to return back. Um, and I was like, and I pitched that to their label and like, um, we don't know, maybe that's a little too pretentious. Uh, come back to us and then, you know, to the label's credit, they, you know, after they came back to military service, they're like, you remember that idea you had? Well, we're not going to do the Odyssey, but we'd love for you to like be part of this. And going back to your question about like sort of.
57:49
Speaker 1
So you were, you were pitching this or you were a part of this conversation before they even went into the army.
57:54
Speaker 2
I wanted to like be embedded in the military with them. Which, you know, I mean, Korea is still technically at war. It's like, they're not just like, it's not like Pete Hex of letting you embed yourself with.
58:06
Speaker 1
Pete Hex of taking kid rock on an elevator.
58:08
Speaker 2
Exactly.
58:09
Speaker 1
Yeah.
58:09
Speaker 2
They're actually, they're going through military service and they're very secretive. So, um, I couldn't do that film, but the return is, you know, is what this film is about. But like going back to the question about like how much of like sort of the Korean culture they embedded in the album. I think it's something we, it's like a metaphor for America in many ways. Like, especially again, hyphenated Americans, like, how Asian do you have, how Asian American you are, how Asian you are, how much is your Asian American being American? And so they have this very famous folk song called Arirang and they're trying to imbue it into the album. And they're like, how do we do it? And they have this conversation where it's like, well, when we put it into the album, it becomes our version of it. It's BTS's version of Ah Ryung. It's like how we think of like what our version of America should be. People tell us like, this is what the definition of America is. But I think the beauty of what we find about America is that it's ever changing. And I think I, it's something that came about while we were filming. It's not something that I realized like beforehand. And I thought that was beautiful to like make those connections to like everyone's sort of like in these liminal spaces of their identity and what they want to represent. And by being who you are representing, you know, who you are, that's how you become like It's almost like Bruce Lee, right?
59:31
Speaker 1
Yep, yep. Be water. It all comes back to Bruce Lee. It's only occurring to me as I say this that, like, Okay, so first of all, and I haven't seen this, but live from New York, he did live from New York in 2015, which is about SNL, which a lot of people have a lot of intense feelings about. And also it's covering a huge swath of American history. And lots of people who feel happy they were a part of SNL, lots of people who feel unhappy they were a part of SNL. And that's only extended in the last 11 years. You could do the update for that. Then you be water, and Bruce Lee fans, and I say this, are some of the most annoying people on planet Earth. It's just the truth. And I claim it. And luckily, I've sort of tried to de-annoy him. Because everybody who watched Bruce Lee, especially people my age, feel like they were the only one watching him at a certain period of time. Because he wasn't yet globally connected because of the internet. And so you had to deal with those fans. Then you do The Greatest Night in Pop. That's a bunch of the biggest egos in show business. And also, We Are the World, I think, is seen as a black song. And I'm not saying, even though there's lots of different people on it, but it's Lionel Richie, it's Michael Jackson. it's Stevie Wonder, it's Quincy Jones.
1:00:51
Speaker 2
You know, we found the one Asian person associated with the, with We Are The World.
1:00:55
Speaker 1
The camera guy? Yes.
1:00:56
Speaker 2
I was like, I was like, we gotta, we gotta represent. And Ken was like, he was such a great person, like interviewer, interviewee as well. And it was like, that's why representation matters.
1:01:06
Speaker 1
I feel like that. And also he was a guy who was like at the end, like, who do I give my invoice to? And they were like, nobody, you did it for free. Okay. So yeah, he's, Ken's great. Then you got the stringer, which is like you sort of wading into a thing, like you said, a generational divide and also about, about, uh, uh, Vietnam, uh, Vietnam, erasure and erasure of voices. And you saying the hero, we, this, the, our hero might be this guy, not this guy. And now you're poking the BTS army. How's that going? I mean, the film has gotten great reviews, so that's got to help, but what were you worried about that? Cause that's another, like the, you know, the stand culture is also its own separate, you know, you luckily didn't do one about Nicki Minaj, but, uh, But how was it to do that? How has it been? How has the Army accepted you?
1:01:51
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, going into it and having, like, talked to the members and seeing how they viewed it, because, you know, there's a lot of pressure, right?
1:02:00
Speaker 1
And you can tell they feel the pressure of the Army when they're in the room, even when it's just the seven of them. Yeah. That the Army is there with them.
1:02:09
Speaker 2
I think it's like, I think. for artists, we, people who have given their time and their attention to our art, be it film or music, like we don't want to let people down. That's at the end of the day. And so I made this film, you know, in many ways for ARMY, because it was their glimpse into a very intimate time of the member's life. but also made it for people who aren't army as well and welcoming them into the group. And since the film has come out, it's been a majority of very generous and gracious messages. And I think it shows like sort of the spectrum of like what army represents. And no, it's just like, again, it's such a privilege. I say that this, after doing films about iconic pop songs and people like, I think, Being able to be the person who's in the room while it happens for this moment in BTS's career was the greatest privilege of my career so far.
1:03:17
Speaker 1
I mean, that's the thing about it being a fly on the wall thing. I'm like, he's the fly on the wall. And all these fans wish they could be you and be there with you. And I think you did do a very great job of letting those guys talk and just sort of be in a way that it felt very much like, we're just going to be over here filming. Now, I'm sure it's more than that. But it's just the idea that, as someone who was not super familiar with them, even though I'm not an army, I don't think I'm officially an army yet. They'll recruit you after this, yeah. But as someone who's been a huge fan of things, to feel like those people have to feel so excited about the fact that Bao just like, look, I'm going to put the camera here, and you get to watch them in ways you've never seen them before. And we're going to tell this story, but most of it is going to be you And in that sense, I think it's sort of a brave film because people like me, if you don't, you sort of have to like go in and just sort of submit to the film because it's not going to be like they were born, they went to this school. It's not going to give you the things that a doc like that often will give you. It's just sort of like one guy's getting dropped off at the house and they got to make an album and he's got to figure out how to get into the album that they've already started making. You know what I mean?
1:04:25
Speaker 2
Yeah.
1:04:26
Speaker 1
Yeah.
1:04:26
Speaker 2
I mean, it's the same thing in a way like with Greatest Night in Pop where we're not giving everyone's like backstory.
1:04:32
Speaker 1
Yeah.
1:04:32
Speaker 2
It's just like you're placed in a moment that is special and that's unique. And you have the biggest group in the world making an album and returning to something and having this brotherhood. And I think that's connective to people beyond if you're a fan of their music or a fan of K-pop. We can all understand when our lives are disrupted by something and what it means to come back to something.
1:04:58
Speaker 1
Last two things I want to say about BTS and then we can move on because I really was like really just moved by in certain ways. One, I just kept sitting there the whole time being like, seven is too many people to be in one band. Like, I just felt anxiety whenever they would have a discussion.
1:05:13
Speaker 2
How many people are in Wu-Tang?
1:05:15
Speaker 1
That's too many people too. But also, here's what I would say about that. It's also RZA. It's like, you know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of people in Wu-Tang, but this is what I kept thinking about. There's a lot of people in the Foo Fighters, but it's Dave Kroll. There's a lot of people in, and so RZA gets to sort of like be a little bit of the like leader of the thing maybe i don't know but bts doesn't seem to have that same like there's not like a person who's like i'm the guy.
1:05:36
Speaker 2
I mean rm's like the spokesperson and he was like the first member but yeah one of the goals for me in this film too is like to show that each seven each of the seven members have a unique voice and opinion.
1:05:49
Speaker 1
Yes yeah that's that everybody feels free to share like i think about that like you know like the only band i can think of that that was close into this is like and this is an LA band, Fishbone, was like six guys who signed up for a group as teenagers. They all became a group when they were teenagers, six very independently minded dudes. And at some point, now there's two original members of the band, because at some point it's like, it's just too hard to hold this together, you know? But like, I just was like, I really felt in a great way, the anxiety of like, when the song is played with the folk song single, some of them are like, that's the best thing I've ever heard in my life. And then one of them would be like, can I say something? I just felt like, oh. It just was like, you could really feel the like, this has got to be hard to navigate for these seven people who are all in the prime of their careers, you know? Yeah.
1:06:33
Speaker 2
I mean, that's one of my favorite scenes where you see like J-Hope just like, it's a banger. It's a banger.
1:06:39
Speaker 1
And then he's like, he's like, I was like, no.
1:06:42
Speaker 2
And it's just like in that one scene, you see the dynamic and the different opinions.
1:06:47
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I just thought that was a great thing to show. The other thing I would say is I just recently read an article about, about i know it's an article it's an instagram post instagram post an article is not the same thing but that's how it works it will be the same thing yeah i just took it some content i guess by the way it's instagram post that sort of like highlighted all the sort of like lyrical mistakes rappers have made over the years one of them is like like uh little wayne was like was like i'm phenomenal that's spelled f like whatever he spells phenomenal with an f uh there's also like There's just like Run DMC apparently says, there's three of us, just like there are three of the Beatles. You know, there's just like times when rappers have made mistakes with the English language. And then to see those dudes sit there and figure out, like to have one of them go, can somebody, like they're talking about, can you send me the correct pronunciations of these English words? And clearly some of them know English better than others. And like, I'll send it to you. But also the idea of like, am I saying this right? And just the intensity of the pressure of like, we want to reach people in the English speaking world and people who are, who are familiar with English, but it's not easy. And then there's a debate about like how much Korean should be in here. I just thought, again, it's like things you don't normally think about with something that is pop, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
1:07:59
Speaker 2
No, it's, that's why I wanted the film to show. And I'm glad that you bring it up. Cause it's, there's a lot of thought that goes behind every single lyric and, you know, English is not their native language to, to sing in English and to rap in English. Like, again, trying to make bangers is hard enough, but trying to make bangers in a language that's not your native language is another level. And then you have the sort of pressure of representing your country. And yeah, there's layers of difficulty on that.
1:08:28
Speaker 1
That's why I walked away. This is like seven bad bunnies. Like this is like a bad bunny instead of one person with seven people. And you know, yeah, yeah. I just thought that like, It really did. And then it's funny. After it was over, I just rolled into the live concert. I was like, well, let me just see. Because I've never seen it before. Let me see it all put together live. And just it really did bring me– give me a new respect. And for you as a filmmaker to have so many different moves in your arsenal and to have so many different moves in your documentary storytelling, I was just really impressed because this was a move I didn't know you had. And it really– I just you know, by my mind, you are one of the, you're the preeminent documentary filmmaker of my time.
1:09:07
Speaker 2
That's, I don't know what to say, but.
1:09:09
Speaker 1
That's what I'm saying. I didn't say definitive. Okay, great. I didn't say definitive, so preeminent. See, preeminent does a lot. I just think that when I look at your things and know what's coming, and then I know at some point you're going to drop another Beyonce track out of the sky, and I'm just going to be like, it really is inspiring, and I really appreciate you as a filmmaker. So thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Before I let you go, can you give the audience a handful of docs that you'd be like, that aren't yours, docs that you feel like, these are docs I would like people to see more of, or a doc that I think is great? It could be a handful.
1:09:43
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think of some, especially that inspired BTS' return, like Stop Making Sense. I think that's one of the best, if not the best concert film ever. There's a little ode to that in our film, actually. I love Minding the Gap, Bing Liu's film. Just a great film about masculinity and growing up. Hoop Dreams is like a film... I mean, these are films that people have seen. No, no, no, but I think it's important to... Not everybody's seen them, but also it's important to sort of know what your sort of film DNA is. Yeah, I mean, Hoop Dreams was just like a film, probably the first documentary I saw, and it just kind of straddled the line between intimate and epic, and that's what I try to do in my films as much as possible. Like, you know, following these two young men across this journey of... the American dream and, um, just America. It's just a perfect portrait of America. Um, and it always sticks with me.
1:10:45
Speaker 1
Yeah. I'm from Chicago. So hoop dreams was huge, especially in Chicago. Yeah. So we have anything else? Um, let me think.
1:10:53
Speaker 2
There's this great film called shirkers that, uh, is on Netflix. It's a film that will just surprise you in terms of like form. I just like films that surprise me. Like, um, if I go into a film and I know exactly what it is, like, you know, again, I talk about like the tension economy that we live in. And like, for me, I'm really grateful for the time that someone gives me to watch a film. So I want to feel like I'm being led by a deft hand. I find that with your film and your work. So you always like infuse, like, you know what a Kamau project is, which I think is important. So I think filmmakers who do that and have a voice and, not like a pretentious auteurship, but enough where they like respect the audience. So I think shirkers is a great film for that. And, um, there's a great film that came out last year called mistress dispeller. Um, that's like this sort of very modern, uh, perspective on love and dating in China. And I think, Oh yes, yes, yes.
1:11:58
Speaker 1
I saw that.
1:11:58
Speaker 2
Yes. Yeah.
1:12:01
Speaker 1
Um, so yeah, those are, That's I'd say it's perfect. I wouldn't have known that you were going to say any of those, you know? So yeah. Great. Thank you for that. Uh, before I let you go, is there any cause or thing that you'd like to recommend people pay attention to or any nonprofit or charity or anything you want to say, support this thing?
1:12:19
Speaker 2
Um, I mean, as someone who comes from a refugee family, like I love the work that, you know, like the IRC does and there's a organization, um, Vote People SOS said specifically about Vietnamese refugees.
1:12:35
Speaker 1
Vote People SOS. Yeah.
1:12:37
Speaker 2
And I just think people who make that sacrifice to leave everything they know and take a risk for a better life for themselves, for their family, like we should be helping them as much as possible and not politicizing like, you know, from, I mean, every sort of moral school of thought, I think, Welcoming people with open arms, people who are the most vulnerable, disenfranchised, who, again, come with nothing and just want a better life for themselves and their family deserve all our support.
1:13:15
Speaker 1
IRC and Boat People SOS. Okay, cool. Last question. It's called Who's With Me? Are you with me?
1:13:22
Speaker 2
I am with you, Kamal.
1:13:23
Speaker 1
Okay, I thought so. After this interview, I'm no longer.
1:13:26
Speaker 2
I want to know who's not with you after. Tell me later.
1:13:31
Speaker 1
So far, everybody's been with me, but you embrace me even though I'm a little bit corny. I appreciate that.
1:13:37
Speaker 2
We're both corny together.
1:13:38
Speaker 1
We are. Thanks, man. Hey, everybody. Thank you for listening to this episode of Who's With Me with my guest, Bao Nguyen. Truly a great conversation. Love talking to the guy and an incredible artist. Check out So many of his documentaries. The Greatest Night in Pop, The Stringer. And you can also check out his latest documentary, BTS The Return, all available on Netflix. And then on Disney +, you can check out Be Water, the Bruce Lee doc. That is the first film I ever saw of Bowles. So yeah, luckily he's got a lot of things out there and they are in the most accessible places. Yes, you have to pay to go to those places, but at least they are not, you know, sometimes I have things out and I'm like, you have to download a new app. Probably don't have to download a new app for these. So thanks, Bao, for coming on. Bao mentioned a couple of organizations, the International Rescue Committee. For over 90 years, the International Rescue Committee, the IRC, has helped people affected by conflict and disaster. Today, we provide emergency relief wherever it's urgently needed and help communities rebuild around the world and across the United States. In 2025 alone, they've supported over 600,000 children and youth in learning programs. Over 2.5 million people supported with and improved water supply services. It goes on and on. Over 700,000 people have been admitted to nutrition programs. Over 300,000 people have been served by resettlement, asylum, and integration programs globally. So they are actually doing the work. And of course, if you're doing the work of helping people who have been impacted, many of those people have been impacted by the United States. I'm thinking specifically about the war that we have on Iran right now. The other organization that Bao mentioned is Boat People SOS. And to tell you about them, Boat People SOS is a national Vietnamese-American nonprofit community-based organization with a long record of accomplishment of services since 1980. Our mission is to empower, organize, and equip Vietnamese individuals and communities in their pursuit of liberty and dignity. And of course, if you're talking about assisting Vietnamese people, then you know that they have been at the bad end of the United States stick. before. So we need to help the people that we have harmed, not me and you, we haven't harmed them, but our government and our country has harmed them. And we, if we have the ability to do something, we can help them. And when I give these nonprofits out, I don't want you to feel like you have to donate every time. One thing you can do is just spread the word on social media. Just all you got to do is spread the link on your, on your blue sky or your threads. If you're on Instagram, take a screen grab of the website and just say, Hey, I just heard about this on who's with me. So you don't have to have money to support all these every week. If you do, good for you. You're doing well. And if not, it's just about spreading the word so people out there can hear about more ways to help people. Because one of these may resonate with somebody and go, oh, I didn't know about that. And I have a connection to that or I feel connected to that. So please just spread the word. And while you're spreading the word, this is an awkward segue into capitalism. This weekend, Friday and Saturday, September 25th and 26th, I'll be at the New York Comedy Club in Stanford, Connecticut. For shows, early shows, late shows, you'll come to the early shows. You know, I know who you are. I know how my audience is. But yeah, so come out. Again, it's not that far from New York, apparently. Maybe like an hour, depending on where you are. So if you can drive out there, do. But if not, if you're in Connecticut, please come out. See me this weekend. And then also pre-order my new book with Adam Mansback, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. If you go to Talk Shop Live, you can also, again, get an autographed copy. Or you can pre-order it the old-fashioned way from your favorite independent bookstore in your neighborhood. All right. Thank you. And again, as always, thanks to Rappaport Productions, Pushkin Industries, and who knows Best Productions, which is me and my wife. Special thanks to Chris Dowd from Fishbone. Happy birthday to Chris Dowd. He had a birthday recently, and I talked to him, and I didn't realize his birthday was coming up. Happy birthday, Chris Dowd. Wish Chris Dowd the Dow Jones on Instagram. And also, again, as we say, do something good for yourself, for your community, and for the world.
The Host
