W. Kamau Bell
W. Kamau Bell is a Peabody Award winner, 4X Emmy Award winner, documentary filmmaker, stand-up comedian, Celebrity Jeopardy! champion, Official Ambassador of the band Fishbone, self-proclaimed #1 Bruce Lee Expert…
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This week’s episode with Colin Kaepernick was recorded live at Marcus Books in Oakland, California. Kamau opens by thanking Kaepernick for his book, The Perilous Fight, which reached #1 on the New York Times bestseller list.
The conversation turns to Kaepernick’s 2016 protest. Kamau reads Kaepernick’s famous quote about refusing to stand for the flag of a country that oppresses Black people. Kaepernick explains that this statement came from years of study and reading, rather than a pre-planned remark. He credits reporter Steve Wyche for handling the story thoughtfully: pulling him aside privately rather than pressing him in public, warning him of the potential fallout, and seeking permission before publishing.
They address a widely circulated misconception that veteran Nate Boyer convinced Kaepernick to kneel. Kaepernick clarifies that teammate Eric Reid proposed kneeling as a way to maintain a respectful posture while continuing the protest. The 49ers then arranged a meeting with Boyer, who initially agreed to kneel alongside them but backed out at the last minute, citing his oath, choosing to stand beside them instead. Kaepernick describes Boyer’s subsequent actions as opportunistic: misrepresenting the story, profiting off T-shirts featuring Kaepernick alongside an MLK quote, excluding Reid, and leveraging the moment into movie roles. Rather than correct the record publicly at the time, Kaepernick and Reid chose to keep the focus on the underlying issue.
The discussion shifts to Kaepernick’s upbringing in Turlock, California, a predominantly white town, where he was raised by adoptive white parents. He describes constantly facing questions about his background and appearance, finding solidarity with other non-white peers, and lacking Black mentors to guide him on cultural matters and hair care. Though his parents were loving, their emphasis on assimilation created tension around his style, hair, music, and culture. He found inspiration in Black athletes who succeeded while staying themselves unapologetically. Figures like Allen Iverson, Randy Moss, and Ken Griffey Jr.
When discussing his racial identity, Kaepernick states simply, “I’m Black,” dismissing debates over racial categorization as divisive tactics meant to fragment the community.
Kamau brings up Jay-Z’s partnership with the NFL. Kaepernick explains that after trying to reach Jay-Z to collaborate, Jay-Z only called him the day before his official NFL press conference. Kaepernick pushed back strongly, accusing Jay-Z of “selling the culture out to a bunch of racists.” He contextualizes this decision by pointing to a 2017 NFL owners’ meeting where Panthers owner Terry Pegula explicitly advocated for finding “a Black face” to help end the protests, comparing the strategy to the NRA using Charlton Heston.
Kaepernick details the work of the Know Your Rights Camp, which he launched following the 2015 killing of Mario Woods. Originally focused on legal rights education, the initiative has expanded to encompass holistic community support, including funding free second autopsies in cases of police custody deaths, providing legal defense for 2020 protesters, and distributing PPE, rent relief, and grants to Black-owned businesses during the COVID-19 pandemic.
Reflecting on his status as a cultural icon, Kaepernick hopes people who wear his jersey translate symbolic support into tangible action, emphasizing the life-and-death stakes behind the movement.
He concludes with a lighthearted story about his four-year-old daughter challenging him at the dinner table, giving a glimpse into “what I’m going to be navigating for the rest of my life.”.
Who’s With Me is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Chris Dowd. Distributed by Pushkin Industries.
Hey, everybody.
00:16
Speaker 2
It's me, Debbie Kamau Bell. Welcome to episode 22 of my podcast, Who's With Me? That is, of course, based on my Substack of the same name, also called Who's With Me? If you want to keep up with everything I've got going on, please follow me on Substack because that's the way to disrupt the algorithm because maybe you stumbled across me today. Maybe you haven't seen me in a while. The algorithm doesn't care. But if you follow me on Substack, you will get an email that says everything I'm doing.
00:41
Speaker 1
Like, for example.
00:42
Speaker 2
Coming out October 27th, which is very shortly, my debut children's book with my friend Adam Mansbach and author Brianna Chambers called Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. Next week, I will show you a copy of the book, the actual book, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. They sent us some early copies. They sent us five. Two of them have disappeared with my kids. So I have three left. But yeah, so next week, I'll show you that. Today's guest is Colin Kaepernick. It's not often you can say my guest needs no introduction, you know, a la the expression and also the David Letterman show on Netflix. But what do you need to say? He ex-NFL quarterback, maybe one day future NFL quarterback, walking civil rights icon, number one New York Times selling author. His brand new book, The Perilous Fight, is out now. And it went to number one on the New York Times bestseller list. It is his first memoir. I've listened to the whole thing. He reads it, which I appreciate. A lot of times books aren't read by the authors, but Colin reads it, and he really clears up a lot of things that we thought we knew about him. If you just followed the news, things that he sort of let go that were lies that he now clears up. It's a great read and very inspirational. Again, we'll talk about that later. I should say this was taped live at one of Colin's book events that was shown in his book. It was taped live in Berkeley, California at the Black Repertory Theater. in association with the National Association of Black Booksellers and Marcus Books, which is a black bookstore in Oakland and the oldest black bookstore in the nation. It was extra black in there, everybody. It was a great night in Berkeley. This is a live event, so it's going to look differently. They actually sat people on stage around us, so it has old Comic View vibes on BET. But we had a great conversation. At the end, you'll notice I didn't ask Colin Kaepernick, who's with me, Because I knew he had about 200 books he needed to sign. He took pictures with everybody. He took everybody in the audience. He stood on stage afterwards and took pictures with them and had their books signed. Nobody does that. Nobody, especially at that level of fame. I mean, people do it when you have 12 people in the audience. But he had over 200 people and he took pictures with everybody. So at the end of the interview, I was like, let's just get this guy on to his next thing. But I'm pretty sure Colin Kaepernick is with me. But I'll ask him next time I see him. I don't see him that often. Anyway, we've said too much.
02:59
Speaker 3
Whew.
03:00
Speaker 2
Hmm.
03:01
Speaker 1
So, yeah.
03:02
Speaker 2
So last week I talked about how I was going to have a conversation on Substack with author Christopher Pepper, co-author of the book Talk to Your Boys. He's a health teacher in California. So he talks about sex education in the class as a health teacher. And we had a conversation on Substack. Here's an excerpt.
03:21
Speaker 4
The big question I think that the Cornell case is bringing up is like, why didn't somebody step in? You had... people who were in this building seeing this um sexual situation get out of hand and um and so there were people physically present who could have stepped in then there was it went out on phones people getting messages on their phone uh so there's a lot more people who could step in and nobody did and yeah it was all men yeah so that's that's why we're saying like why do we need to talk to boys about this it's because the boys we have right now are going to be men It's easy to imagine them in that kind of situation in the future where they have an opportunity to step in. It's also like that can be a hard thing to do if you're worried about your honor, your friends, things like that. So people need practice doing it and they need some messages from the adults saying, hey, this is what I expect you to do. This is what the moral and ethical thing is to do. Let's read some scenarios. Let's practice. Let's actually talk about this.
04:25
Speaker 2
Yeah, so that conversation is on my Substack. Again, you can go to my Substack.
04:29
Speaker 1
It's free. You can follow the thing.
04:30
Speaker 2
It was a conversation, as you can see, about consent and about how men can be better leaders, men who do not want to contribute to rape culture or hopefully want to dismantle rape culture, can do a better job.
04:41
Speaker 1
It was a great, free-flowing conversation.
04:44
Speaker 2
I have a lot of conversations that are all on the podcast, but I do want to make sure you know about those.
04:48
Speaker 1
If you want to check them out.
04:48
Speaker 2
And again, Substack is a great place to check out some of my other conversations that did not make the podcast or not. Some things are so ripped from the headlines, you just want to get them out quickly. But yeah, so please check that out. And it's interesting because, as again, I talked about last week here on Who's With Me about the whole idea of rape culture and how some men are demons and just about how we dismantle it. Then I was actually at the Othering and Belonging Institute conference in Louisville, Kentucky, Muhammad Ali's hometown. And it's a conversation I've been in the middle of a lot recently, and I'm happy to be in the middle of it. And it's just clear that we have to stay in the middle of it because at the same time that me and lots of other people are posting about how we need to do better with consent and how we need to do better in society with consequences and repercussions, there's people out there pushing the opposite. There's people out there pushing the opposite. And it's also really painful when you see women putting the responsibility for rape on women.
05:46
Speaker 1
Megyn Kelly, who is an absolute demon. did some of that.
05:51
Speaker 2
I saw somebody else from Fox News, Rachel Duffy Campos, I think her name is. She's formerly, I think, of MTV reality show, but now is a Fox News head, and her husband is, I think, head of the Department of Transportation. But anyway, pushing out, saying it's women's responsibility. I think she said women need to be held to a higher standard. And it's just bad times.
06:12
Speaker 1
Let me be clear. We have enough.
06:13
Speaker 2
Problems going on in society right now Like literally, I had to call my dad last week because I was like, hey, sounds like there's a hurricane headed to you. And then when I was in Stanford, Connecticut, the North, the Northeaster was hitting and people were like getting afraid because the Northeaster was going to hit. And there's just this, you know, the El Nino's happening, you know, like Mother Nature provides us with enough problems. We should be able to figure out how to not have a society that encourages fans of flames of rape culture. and also turns a blind eye to men's demonry. And people's demonry, but we're talking about men's demonry right now. I feel pressured to try to do more. Not that I don't have enough jobs, but especially in this time when we have a pedophile in the White House.
07:03
Speaker 1
Donald Trump is an adjudicated rapist. Never forget that.
07:06
Speaker 2
I feel like the press, whenever they introduce Trump, just say, adjudicated rapist, President Trump.
07:10
Speaker 1
He's an adjudicated rapist. He has been adjudicated through his E.G. and Carol's civil suit. So there you go.
07:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, and in the middle of all that, Shane Gillis was the host of SNL. I hate being the comedy sheriff. I've written a lot about stand-up comedians, especially because the whole Rogan sphere is just so prevalent. And Shane likes to sort of pretend like he's not in the Rogan sphere, but he's in the Rogan sphere. He's just like the cool frat guy. I'm different than the other frat guys. And I'll say this. Shane has hosted SNL three times. I've seen Shane be very funny as a stand-up comedian many times. And you don't have to think every comedian is funny. If this thumbnail says Kamau Bell defends Shane Gillis, I'm firing everybody on my side. But it's just the idea that something about him hosting SNL, his monologues, he's done three now, which is also he's hosted three times.
07:59
Speaker 1
He's a very successful comedian.
08:00
Speaker 2
I don't know if you know, he just had the biggest solo comedy show in history adjudicated by the Guinness Book of World Records.
08:08
Speaker 1
He sold over 70,000 tickets, 76,000, I don't know, tickets.
08:12
Speaker 2
In Philadelphia at the, at the football stadium, biggest solo comedy show of all time.
08:16
Speaker 1
So he's a very popular comedian. So they'll be like, I don't like Shane Gillis. Well, it's great. He's selling out tickets.
08:21
Speaker 2
But again, you can, comedy is subjective, but all three of his SNL monologues have all been notable because they have all not gone great. And the third one he did this weekend was another one that's giving a lot of pushback and not just pushback from people online. It's like, if you listen, if you watch it on TV, it doesn't go great. And you know, he's, he's a comedian who knows how to kill, but, there's something about in those moments, it feels like Shane is playing what we call in standup comedy, the back of the room. He's not playing the audience in the room and he's not playing the audience at home. He's playing his friends. Like in his newest, in his newest monologue, at one point he name checks Joe Rogan and Theo Vaughn, which just feels like it's not, they weren't necessary to the joke necessarily. Like it just feels like he's just sort of like once the, once the online fans watching his fans be like, he said Joe Rogan. It's like maybe he, You know, he's like some sort of, it's like he's playing bingo. Can I say Joe Rogan? I'll say the Yvonne. And it's funny when he said Joe Rogan in the, in on SNL and his monologue, he said Joe Rogan and he just took a pause. Like there was a slight pause, like waiting for the applause of the audience and they didn't applause.
09:24
Speaker 1
And he's getting a lot of push right now.
09:25
Speaker 2
Cause one of his jokes is about, as he says, women who go to the gym dress like whores. It just seems like a, Weird time to make that joke. Not that that joke is ever, like, that joke is as old as women going to the gym. You know, he talks about how women's pants, the way they dress now. I mean, I'm old enough to remember when they talked about women wearing, like, Lycra and spandex. Like, that joke is as old as the first time a woman went to the gym. Some guy had something to say about it. So it just feels like it's beneath him, but it's maybe not beneath the audience he's playing through at home so it just and he's getting a lot of pushback for it and for me it just feels like man if you're about to go on a national platform and you're about to perform you know seven minutes of stand-up and you read the news and and shane often talks about things having the news It seems like you'd be like, is this the time to tell my women dress like whores joke? Because he's got a lot of material. Maybe he thought it was. Just seems weird as we're having a national conversation about, or trying to, some of us trying to have a national conversation about consent and rape and rape culture. Seems like that joke, which is again, well-worn material instead of comedy. You could just swap it out with another one. but again, I'm not, I hate being the sheriff of comedy. I just, I just, I guess I just want us to, I want us to have a better conversation about and get to some better consequential, actual actionable results for, so that we don't have more rape in this world and in this country and on college campuses, especially where, you know, people are supposed to be safe because the college is supposed to protect them. And that, that didn't seem helpful to that. But again, It just seems like there's a better chess move there than women who go to the gym or dress like whores. Anyway, here's a fun piece of trivia that I often share whenever I talk about Saturday Night Live and who's hosted and who hasn't hosted. Shane Gillis has hosted three times. Wanda Sykes has never hosted Saturday Night Live.
11:35
Speaker 1
Sit with that.
11:36
Speaker 2
I don't know Wanda personally to know if she's ever been offered and turned it down, but that's not really a thing that a comedian would do.
11:43
Speaker 1
If you got offered SNL, you wouldn't really.
11:47
Speaker 2
turn it down I just can't imagine because even if you don't like the show it certainly sells tickets you know but I can't confirm that but it is certainly strange that there's lots of people who never hosted Saturday Night Live who you feel like should have hosted Saturday Night Live but for me Wanda Sykes is the one she recently just released a new Netflix special called Legacy go check it out it's great of course because Wanda Sykes is always great and I just think about it a lot we talk about like man Shane Gillis is back on SNL again Wanda Sykes has never hosted Saturday Night Live. Anyway, on to a guy who seems to be very particular about the moves he makes, especially when it comes to social justice. Let's talk about Colin Kaepernick. Again, Colin Kaepernick seems like he needs no introduction. I'm honored to have gotten to know him a very little bit. We first met in an event we did at Nike several years ago around Juneteenth. I brought a couple of my kids there. He was very nice to my daughters. Uh, you know, it was just, he's just a very solid, thoughtful individual. I guess I just, I'm not even trying to feel like I'm condescending by saying all these things about him, but he's just for a guy who went through what he went through, he is incredibly open and good humor. Uh, and by I say what he went through real quickly, he was, he decided to, as we know, but maybe there's people out there who don't know. Uh, I think it was the 20, In 2016, when he was a quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers, he was a backup quarterback. He had spent some time reading books during the offseason, some books about the history of black folks in this country. He talked about this during the podcast. He read the autobiography of Malcolm X and some other books. And he lists them when we talk about it later. And he decided he didn't want to stand for the national anthem anymore. And so for a couple of preseason games, he sat on a Gatorade cooler during the national anthem.
13:45
Speaker 1
And nobody really noticed it. It wasn't a big deal.
13:47
Speaker 2
And then Eric Reid, who he talks about here, noticed it, who was a fellow player on the 49ers, and said, what are you doing?
13:55
Speaker 1
What's going on? Black player. And Colin explained.
13:57
Speaker 2
He said, okay, great. How about you kneel and I'll kneel with you? Because I just think that would be a better look than sitting. And kneeling shows more respect and shows you're doing something intentional as opposed to just sitting on a Gatorade cooler. So Colin said yes, and they started kneeling. And that's when America went apeshit. America had no chill. By America, I mean the forces in power in America, white supremacy in America went apeshit. And eventually, Colin was out of the league, and he sued the league. saying they colluded against him to prevent him from getting a new job. He won that suit. And we talk about that because there's ideas that Colin has a non-disparagement clause, which we make clear. We talk about his beef with Jay-Z, which is called beef is ridiculous. Uh, we talk about his life growing up in the parts of California that I refer to Texas, California. He grew up in Turlock, California and hung out a lot in Modesto, California and how he had defined his black community in those spots. And, and a lot of it is around hair. So we talk a lot about Colin's hair. Uh, you know, it was a great free flowing conversation and Colin, I asked him before we talked, is there anything you don't want to talk about? And he said, no, we can talk about anything. And we talked about lots of things and I hope to talk to him again. Uh, and I know there's a lot of Colin interviews out there, but we also, we talk about things I haven't seen him talk about a lot. We talk about being a black kid who's adopted by a white family. And that seems to be a recurring theme in my podcast, just cause I have a lot of trans racially adopted people.
15:21
Speaker 1
In my life.
15:23
Speaker 2
Um, Yes, we talk about his, and he writes in the book about the difficulties of his white family loving him, but not understanding how to love his blackness.
15:31
Speaker 1
And so we've had some very frank discussions about that.
15:34
Speaker 2
And again, this was recorded during his book tour for his brand new memoir, The Perilous Fight, which recently went number one on the New York Times bestseller list.
15:41
Speaker 1
It's a great book. Pick it up.
15:42
Speaker 3
Enjoy.
15:43
Speaker 2
Hey, thanks for watching an episode of Who's With Me. If you're on YouTube, please like and subscribe, share, hit that hype button. I hear it makes all the difference. Please like, subscribe, share, hit the hype button.
15:55
Speaker 1
Thank you.
16:07
Speaker 3
How's everyone doing today?
16:12
Speaker 2
Well, I've asked you, how are you doing today, sir?
16:15
Speaker 3
I'm doing good. This is amazing. It's always great to be back in the Bay.
16:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, yes.
16:20
Speaker 3
It's great to be back.
16:23
Speaker 2
When we were backstage, I asked you if you considered this to be a home game. Oh, definitely. Okay, okay.
16:29
Speaker 3
Coming back to the Bay is like, all right, I can take a deep breath out. This is home.
16:33
Speaker 1
Oh, nice.
16:34
Speaker 2
Well, we feel the same way. I start by, I want to give you, I give the people I talk to some flowers because I appreciate you being here. With you, it is pretty easy to give you your flowers. So I could say many things, but the thing I want to say to you right now is thank you for this book. Because this book, and I listened to the whole thing. I listened to you read it to me on Audible, so I recommend that. But thank you for this book. Thank you for reading it in your voice. Because this book does a great job of clearing up some things that we maybe thought we knew, but we had never heard directly from you. And we'll talk about some of that stuff tonight. So first of all, thank you for this book. Give it up for the book, everybody.
17:11
Speaker 3
Also, I'm going to give you some flowers.
17:13
Speaker 2
Nope, nope.
17:14
Speaker 1
Okay, we don't have time.
17:14
Speaker 3
Thank you for all the work that you're doing, because we need your voice. So thank you.
17:19
Speaker 2
I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Thank you, civil rights icon. Not joking at all. Not joking at all. And then the other thing I want to thank you about, because this feels very special, thank you for being outside.
17:34
Speaker 1
Because you are outside right now.
17:36
Speaker 2
Every time I open my phone on Instagram, you're on somebody else's podcast. and across all the smoke and also from all podcasts. You seem to be podcast agnostic right now. You are out there telling your story. And I know that doesn't necessarily, you don't always put yourself out there that way. And so it feels really special that not only do we get to read your story, we get to hear you tell it in lots of different formats from a lot of different audiences. So thank you for being outside.
18:03
Speaker 3
We like being outside every once in a while.
18:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, no, no, no, I know. I'm not saying you don't like being outside, but you're really outside right now. And in fact, he is so much outside that it was just announced today that your book, The Prayerless Fight, is the number one bestseller on the New York Times bestseller list.
18:24
Speaker 1
Congratulations.
18:26
Speaker 3
Thank you. And thank you to all of you. I mean, that doesn't happen without all of the support from all of you. And I would say more importantly, the support from people over the last 10 years. as we've been doing work in communities, as we've been trying to build the movement and address issues directly in our communities. We aren't here today if it isn't for all of the people that are doing work every day in the communities and being able to build and collaborate with them. So thank all of you and thank you for everyone that's been doing that work as well.
18:57
Speaker 1
For sure, for sure. Thank you.
18:59
Speaker 2
I also, let's start here because I was reading your book. The thing that I was always struck by, we're going to go straight to the meat of this. We're going to page 181. We'll maybe go back a little bit. The thing that I was always struck by by you is when you gave your quote to Steve Weiss, and we can talk about that in a second, that it was so succinct and clear. And I think the thing that we just didn't know that you were that guy. And I want to read this quote out loud because I think we've heard it a million times, but I just want to read it out loud again. I'm not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football. It would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting.
19:43
Speaker 1
Away with murder. Yes. so I'm a writer and that's good writing.
19:52
Speaker 2
Not that you need to hear from me but did you have that like ready to go did you know that's exactly what you were going.
20:00
Speaker 3
To say no that was years of reading years of understanding and in that moment when asked why I wasn't standing, it was so clear to me why I wasn't. And also the implications around it, that conversation of it being bigger than football is also an understanding of historically what has happened to athletes and what has happened to us more broadly when we speak out against issues directly in relation to black and brown communities. So it wasn't something that I had fully ready to go, was everything that I had been studying leading into that moment that led to that.
20:44
Speaker 2
And one of the things you do clear up in the book, because so much of this stuff I think we all followed the story. It was a huge news story. But some things we probably connected our own dots, and then some things we were lied to by other people at the time about what happened, and I want to get into all that. But talk about Steve Weiss, the reporter who pulled you aside, because I think even that is an extra special thing that I wasn't aware of.
21:09
Speaker 3
Oh, man. Well, this is also thinking about Steve Weiss in that moment. It's why black reporters matter and are so important. Because in this moment, he understood the implications of what I was going to be stepping into. And he didn't ask publicly in front of everybody. He asked to be able to talk to me on the side. He was like, hey, if no one else asks about this, can I talk to you on the side?
21:38
Speaker 2
This is after you had taken a knee. You had sat down on the Gatorade cooler.
21:42
Speaker 3
Yes.
21:43
Speaker 2
And this was the third game that you had finally, if I remember correctly, that you started taking a knee.
21:49
Speaker 3
Yes, this is the third game that I've been sitting. And this is the first time that people had identified I was sitting. It was also the first game I was coming back from my three surgeries and stepping on the field. So he pulls me to the side. He's like, hey, I want to ask you about this. Can you tell me a little bit about Like, why aren't you standing for the anthem? Is there anything there? And I gave him that response. And in that conversation, he also had a perspective of, well, are you aware what comes with this? Like, do you know what's on the other side of this? And I was fully aware of what the potential was. You never know how that actually plays out. But Looking back on that moment, how he approached that in many ways was, hey, I want to make sure you're protected and I want to make sure I'm looking out for you is another black man in this space. And having an understanding and perspective that may be a little different. Steve's a little bit older than me. So having a little bit of that mentorship in that moment, too, of. I understand what you're saying.
23:04
Speaker 1
Also.
23:06
Speaker 3
Here's the knowledge that I have on this. And I just want to make sure you're aware before I put this out there. And he asked, like, are you good if I put this out? So I think that moment becomes really important. Just having some of that insight of, you know, someone's looking out for you, even in a moment where they could have taken the approach of I'm just going to exploit this and get as much as I can. for my own personal benefit, that's not how we approach that conversation.
23:31
Speaker 2
First of all, we can highlight Black Reporters Matter. I think that's important to say again. He came to you as like, because on some level, he might just want to get the story. But he also saw you as a black man. He's like, if I put out there, are you ready for that? And if you had said no, he might have been like, all right. He would have said something else. Yeah.
23:56
Speaker 3
To me, it was very clear. I was like, I'm going to make sure I'm looking out for you in this moment because I've had other interactions that are not that.
24:06
Speaker 1
We'll talk about some of that, I'm sure.
24:09
Speaker 2
Because I do think it's important because, yes, black reporters matter, but black community matters more than black reporters matter. And he came to you as a fellow black man saying, like, hey, just before we do this. So moving on from there, so shout out to Steve Weiss. I've told the story wrong. And so when you told the story that how it actually happened, I was shocked.
24:31
Speaker 1
I was like, is he sure?
24:32
Speaker 2
Because I know I've told this story. And I want you to clear it up here because these are things in the books. But I think it's just reasons to read the book because there's a million things in the book like this. I told the story that Colin Kaepernick met a veteran, a white veteran. And there's a picture of the two of them that is internet searchable. And that white veteran said, I don't think you should sit. I think you should kneel. That's more respectful. And I've told that story on stages around the country. And apparently I was wrong. And I was not the only one that was wrong. Talk about that guy and say his name.
25:06
Speaker 3
Man. Well, the person you're talking about is Nate Boyer. And for context leading into this, after that third game in that interview with Steve Weissch, The media firestorm came after that. Also a ton of support came after that. And in that moment, going into our next game, Eric Reid came up to me and was like, hey, can I talk to you? And we went and sat down. I think we ended up talking for two, three hours. And he was like, look, I understand what you're trying to accomplish. I believe in it. He's from Baton Rouge. He was like, I I saw Alton Sterling get killed. My dad drives down that road. He was like, I also see the areas that you're getting pushback. You know, you aren't out there with the team. You know, it's not respectful. And even though those are things to try to deflect from actually addressing the issue, it was like, well, can we take those off the table? So Eric was like, would you be willing to go out and take a knee? Like, we'll do it together. And that's how we move forward. So it was Eric Reid's idea for us to go out and take a knee. Now, after we met, the 49ers asked me to go down and meet with Nate Boyer because he had written an open letter. He's a Green Beret, played for Seattle for a period of time. And during that conversation, we're like, well, this is what we're going to go out and do tonight. And he was like, oh, I think that makes sense. But he also told us that he was going to go out and take a knee with us. So part of the reason he was on the sideline that night was we thought he was going to go out and protest with us. And as we get to that moment of asking everyone to rise for the Star-Spangled Banner, he comes over and he says, oh, well, I took an oath, so I actually can't protest with you. I'll stand beside you, though. Which....
27:16
Speaker 2
Say it, Colin, say it! Say it!
27:19
Speaker 1
We'll keep the secret. We're here. We're here.
27:22
Speaker 3
Feels very opportunistic. Feels like he got the photo op he wanted. But on the back end of that, you know, there's things that we saw. We saw him running around doing press around it and misrepresenting that story. Also, trying to profit off of it. You know, creating T-shirts, trying to sell those, cutting Eric Reid out of the T-shirts. So Mayweigh's rewriting history, the kicker on it was the MLK quote underneath. That put me over the top. I couldn't do it, y'all. But also, I mean, ended up in movies on the back of that. So it became something, an early signal for us of what was to come and how people were going to try to leverage and use the moment opportunistically. The other part that was interesting within that, to your point of, oh, the story was out there and everybody took it and ran with it. It was fascinating to myself and Eric that not a single person ever questioned him on it. No one questioned him. No one ever came and asked me or Eric about it. Now, during this time period... People are trying to make the protest about everything but the issue that we're actually talking about. So for us, we were looking at the situation and said, well, do we go out and address this head on? And then the conversation shifts to, well, whose idea was it? And we get in the back and forth there. Or do we say, we're going to stay focused on the issue. We're going to keep moving forward. As much as I personally want to go out and address this, we didn't think that was the best to be able to keep the focus on the issue. So we tried to just stay consistent and laser focused, even when moments like this that came up that were in many ways just ridiculous.
29:21
Speaker 2
We're going to go back a little bit. Talk about Turlock.
29:31
Speaker 3
What part?
29:34
Speaker 1
It's funny.
29:34
Speaker 2
I've had this conversation recently about people outside of California, if you say I'm from California, they put us all in LA. But then if they go, oh, I'm in the Bay Area, they go, OK, that counts.
29:45
Speaker 1
They put you in the Bay.
29:47
Speaker 2
But as I've said many times, most of this state is Texas. And you grew up in Texas, California. By my reckoning, I have not been there enough to really know for sure.
29:59
Speaker 1
You should visit.
30:01
Speaker 2
Probably not now.
30:03
Speaker 1
Don't do that now.
30:05
Speaker 2
So talk about growing up in Turlock, specifically as who you are individually.
30:11
Speaker 3
Turlock as I was growing up in it, I think Turlock at that point in time was, I think it was like 3% black or something like that. So there was not a whole lot of us there. But it became a space where you're constantly navigating how you show up in the world and people remind you of it. Also being black, adopted into a white family. Like it is constantly a question around like, oh, why are you here? Like who, how are you showing up like this? Now, as time goes on, Turlock is also small enough where it's like everybody kind of knows everybody. So it becomes less of like, oh, why are you here? And more so how your blackness shows up within Turlock becomes a question. That's something that you just constantly navigate. Also, friend group-wise, I get all the black and brown kids kind of, all right, hey, y'all, it's all of us, all right?
31:18
Speaker 1
We're now a new racial group.
31:22
Speaker 3
Turlock was fascinating that way because it was basically like black, Mexican, Indian, Assyrian, kind of all huddled up because there's just not that many of us. And in many ways, it's like, well, that becomes the other interlock. And everybody's like, well, we're all kind of facing similar things. So you find comfort in each other in that way. And you find community in that way.
31:52
Speaker 2
And you talk a lot in the book about your relationship to your parents. So you said a black adopted into a white family. And it is fascinating to me, I think this is something that you, even though you're a black adopted white family, your white parents don't, there's the type of white parents who adopt a black kid who like study the books on how to raise a black child. It's more of a later 21st century phenomenon, I think, than maybe when you were coming up. But there's a lot more resources now. If you happen to be a white parent who adopts a black kid, they don't all avail themselves of the resources.
32:22
Speaker 1
I'm going down a tributary.
32:24
Speaker 2
Anyway, your parents did not seem to be the, the type of white parents who were trying to figure out how do we parent this kid specifically as a black child.
32:33
Speaker 1
Am I right about that?
32:37
Speaker 3
Yes and no. It was very clear from the time I was young. You're black. You're adopted into our family. That was never hidden. That was never a question. I knew my parents loved me. They wanted what was best for me.
32:55
Speaker 4
They.
32:56
Speaker 3
I think where the differentiation is, is they tried to raise me the same way as my brother and sister. And my experience was just not their experience. What I was navigating in the world and how I showed up in the world was not how they show up. So it then became a point of tension of how I dress, my hair, music, culture. All of these things came into question as to Like, well, why are you like that? Like, why do you want to do this? No, you shouldn't do that. Here are the things you should be doing. Here are the things you should like. And in many ways, it's, well, we need you to assimilate because we think that's what's best. So that point of contention then becomes you have a choice. And I think you see this in a decent amount of situations where you either have a path where you fully assimilate And you go full bore there? Or you're like, no, I cherish my blackness. I love my blackness. And you're not going to change that. And for me, that's where I lived in the space of, well, it may be a constant battle, but I love who I am. And that led to some of the role models I had that I saw doing this on a national stage. During this era, it's Allen Iverson, who completely shifted culture. In the NFL, it's Randy Moss who is out there unapologetically himself. And in baseball, it's Ken Griffey Jr. So I'm looking to all of them. I mean, like, well, they're fighting a similar battle within their respective sports. And we're seeing this on national stage. And I saw a lot of parallels to what I was navigating at home. So for me, they became people that I looked up to I was like, well, can I replicate what they're doing? The other part is they were the best at what they did. It wasn't like, oh, we're just out here and this is who we are. It's like, no, we're out here and we're the best. So deal with it. And that became the beauty of it.
35:09
Speaker 2
How did your parents feel about, my heroes are Allen Iverson and Randy Moss? Your white parents. I want to be clear about that. Your white parents.
35:19
Speaker 3
What's interesting to me is how they are talked about. So for me, I'm like, oh, these are role models for me that I can look up to because of how they show up in the world. Been incredibly successful and they are who they are. For them, it was like, oh, you like the rebels. And in my mind, I'm looking at them and I'm like, I don't view this as rebellious. Why is it upsetting or why is it viewed as rebellious that they show up as black men and show up as their full selves and don't just assimilate. And that mentality is some of what I had to navigate just through Turlock. It's like showing up as a young black boy growing into a black man was like, well, some of these actions, growing your hair out, it's like, oh, you're being rebellious. Oh, this is a phase for you. And it's like, well, now this is just how my hair grows.
36:17
Speaker 2
Like, this is it.
36:19
Speaker 3
I woke up like this. Definitely got to do a little picket.
36:27
Speaker 2
I got mine here in case you need it.
36:30
Speaker 1
Yours is probably a little longer.
36:31
Speaker 3
Got a little longer one. You always have to have a few, though. They end up in different places.
36:37
Speaker 1
Yeah, they do. A lot of Ubers. Can you come back? Otherwise, I can't go outside. Exactly.
36:47
Speaker 3
Yeah, but all I'd say is Definitely things to navigate within Turlock.
36:56
Speaker 2
These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health. Your social media feed is packed with wellness trends telling you to cold plunge, protein max, and so much more.
37:06
Speaker 1
But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? And what's just plain wrong?
37:09
Speaker 2
Health versus Hype from the American Medical Association breaks it all down. Emmy-nominated host Trace Dominguez talks to health influencers, real people, and most importantly... to doctors to separate fact from fiction. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Listen to Health Versus Hype wherever you get your podcasts. Well, let's, I mean, we sort of talked about hair. I think let's, the number of times I winced every time the word supercuts came up in your book. I mean, do you literally go to supercuts or is that just an expression?
37:47
Speaker 3
No, it was literally Supercuts. This is how vivid the memory is. It was Supercuts. It was on gear. It was one of the main streets in Turlock. There's not too many main streets in Turlock. But I would go into Supercuts, and it would either be a number one or it would be a zero, and they would just shave my head.
38:09
Speaker 2
No fade, no cut apart into it, no spell my name in the back.
38:15
Speaker 3
There was no lineup at all. Not even like, oh, just do it. Don't go look at my childhood photos, okay?
38:24
Speaker 1
No.
38:25
Speaker 3
And if you do, have empathy, please. Hairline was, it was a process. It wasn't until I got to college that I actually had a black barber. God, I'm first.
38:39
Speaker 1
Wow.
38:39
Speaker 2
Yeah.
38:45
Speaker 3
All of the ahs out there. Oh, man.
38:47
Speaker 2
That was the biggest ah of the night. And we've talked about a lot of things.
38:52
Speaker 3
But for me, part of that journey was like, there was no black mentor in Turlock for me to go to. I was like, yeah, you need to go get lined up. Or, hey, here's how you take care of your hair. Or here are the things you need to look out for out in the world. I just had to figure those things out along the way. This was also for the younger folks out there. This is also pre just being able to jump on Google or Instagram or TikTok and be like, all right.
39:24
Speaker 2
What's everybody doing?
39:25
Speaker 3
It's just like, you have to try to find people. And that became a process. And it really wasn't until I got to college that I had community around me that I was able to get some of those insights from.
39:40
Speaker 2
And you talk about in the book about you grew your hair out. Specifically, you stopped super cutting it because you wanted to do the braids, the Allen Iverson braids.
39:48
Speaker 3
Yeah.
39:49
Speaker 1
And how that went.
39:51
Speaker 3
That was also a process. So the entry point into that was actually there were two brothers who played football, Ryan Clay and Marcus Clay. They were one of the other black families in Turlock. Again, there was a handful of us. And they came to practice one day, and both of them had braids. I was like, oh, this is my shot. Like I have someone to go ask. So I asked them, they're like, oh, well, here's, here's who did our, our hair. Um, you know, you need to grow your hair out. It needs to be about three inches long, like giving me some of the insight. So I'm like, all right, three inches. I'm at home measuring my hair. Like, all right, how, how close am I to getting there in that process? Even just growing my hair out became like, you, you look kind of messy. Like it, That became a conversation. But actually getting my hair braided, ultimately they gave me the number. It was a high school girl who had braided their hair. I go over to her house. She starts braiding. I get about halfway through. I think it was her sister that came home and was like, oh, we got to go to the mall and pick up some clothes for this event. So my first braiding experience, I end up in the car half braided On the way to mall. Now, at this point, I'm in middle school, so I'm probably like 13 years old. I'm like, well, if we got to go to the mall, we're going to the mall. I don't have a choice here. I'm jumping in the car. So we jump in the car. We drive to Modesto. It's like 30 minutes away.
41:38
Speaker 2
I love the fact that all the California references here.
41:43
Speaker 1
Are like, oh, oh.
41:46
Speaker 3
How do y'all really feel?
41:49
Speaker 2
Then we went to Vacaville.
41:53
Speaker 1
Dixon.
41:56
Speaker 3
So we get to Modesto. They go grab their clothes. I'm sitting in the car. They come back out. We're getting ready to leave. Oh, the hot light's on. So we go to Krispy Kreme because the hot light's on. This is also my first Krispy Kreme experience.
42:16
Speaker 4
Wow.
42:17
Speaker 3
So I was getting a whole lot this day.
42:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, you got a lot of punches in your black card that day.
42:21
Speaker 4
Oh, man.
42:24
Speaker 3
So grabbed a Krispy Kreme, go back, finished braiding my hair. Also realized getting your hair braided, my hair was just barely long enough. So she was using rubber bands throughout to make it stay. Oh, I heard the oohs.
42:42
Speaker 2
Yeah, I heard the oohs. We are in church now.
42:45
Speaker 3
This is, yeah. I felt all the ooze too.
42:48
Speaker 1
Yeah, you felt the wind.
42:49
Speaker 3
I was like, oh man. So the braids didn't last too long because my head was on fire. But ultimately, get back. Now at this point, I'm probably gone for like three hours. My mom picks me up and she is furious. Furious. Ultimately, that led to well, if you're going to do this, we're going to take you to a professional then. So, ended up going to a black barbershop the next time in Modesto.
43:24
Speaker 2
I think that's Kevin Johnson.
43:34
Speaker 3
But the front of that barbershop was actually a clothing store. So, Basically, you had everything you wanted in one place.
43:41
Speaker 1
Nice.
43:42
Speaker 2
How are you going to do it in a place where there's not a lot of black people? The neighborhood, the mall's got to be one spot.
43:47
Speaker 3
Just one stop. But this was one of the first places that I walked into. I was like, oh man, this feels like a sense of community here for me. It's all black folks in there. My mom was walking in there with me. She's looking around. She's like, oh, what did I get myself into as well? But Even as I walked into the back of the store to go to the barbershop to get braided, it was interesting because immediately it felt like everybody was looking out for me. It was almost like, all right, we got you. We know what you're navigating.
44:26
Speaker 2
We see what's happening here with your mom and you and your hair's dry. Oh, man.
44:36
Speaker 3
There was no oils or conditioners or none of that.
44:40
Speaker 1
You're using two in one. It was.
44:48
Speaker 3
So now you're just bringing back memories.
44:50
Speaker 2
Yeah, no, I'm actually talking about myself a little bit, too. So, but you, they, I just want to highlight the fact, because I think it's important that those black folks in Modesto saw, oh, come here, brother, we got you.
45:03
Speaker 3
Absolutely. And that Looking back, those moments were so valuable. Because again, immediately walking in, I was like, oh, I can relax. I know I'm good here. And even the woman that was braiding my hair, after that, she was like, well, you can just come to the house. She wanted to make sure everything was good the first time. And then it became, I would go over to her house to get braided. When I would go over there, she'd be like, oh, you want food? She would have food ready. Be like, come sit on the ground. She's sitting on the couch, braiding my hair. It would be 106 and Park or Rap City on. And that was, in many ways, that was like the escape for me. That was like, oh, I can just be here, and I don't have to worry about anything. And while we're driving into the neighborhood, it was a low-income neighborhood. in an area that people may deem like, oh, this may not be as safe, that felt so safe for me. Like the sense of community there. So I think, when I think back to those moments, like the concepts and ideas of safety and community and how we look out for each other, I had that show up for me in very real ways at a very young age. in moments that I don't think I fully appreciated how much I needed it in that moment. And I didn't have anywhere else to go to find it.
46:42
Speaker 2
Like I said earlier, I've been watching you on a lot of podcasts. I saw you on the Karen Hunter show. Yes, shout out for Karen Hunter. And she talked about the idea of how you classify yourself racially. The word biracial came up. Some people would say mixed race. Some people say all these things. What is your racial classification for yourself?
47:07
Speaker 3
I'm black. It's such a weird debate to me. How are you classifying? I show up in the world as a black man. I'm going to be treated as a black man. The actions I should be taking should be in conjunction, in support of the black community because I am part of that community. It's not Now, I also feel like that's something used to try to divide the community. Like, oh, well, if we can splinter and fragment this, like, there's less power there. So I just think also we need to be aware of tactics that may be used against us to try to weaken the community and weaken the power that we collectively have.
47:56
Speaker 1
Absolutely. Absolutely.
48:00
Speaker 2
When we first met years ago, you met two of my daughters who are, their mom is white, they identify as black, so we clear everybody.
48:08
Speaker 3
Good job, Dad.
48:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, no, sure.
48:10
Speaker 2
I have to say I have some pride in one of them is pretty light skinned, and she can say, when she says white people, I'm like, yes, I did it. Yes, she identifies that as an outside group.
48:21
Speaker 1
And her mom's like, you know.
48:25
Speaker 2
And I have a lot of people who've been in my life, just because the community of the Bay Area, who who were trans-racially adopted, black people adopted by white people. And there's a lot of them who love their parents and know that those are their people, love their people, their adopted parents, those are their parents, but feel like maybe white parents should not be allowed to adopt black children. Do you have any thoughts on that? Oh, man.
48:49
Speaker 3
It's interesting because, again, my parents did a lot for me. Loved me. They gave me a strong foundation. gave me a great moral foundation. At the same time, when it came to culture and it came to my blackness, that just wasn't there. And I've seen a lot of these conversations. It's tough for me to say definitively one way or the other. What I will say is, if you are white and adopting a black child like you should do your work you should do your work and part of that work is also making sure that you have black folks around your child because there's going to be experiences there's going to be knowledge there's going to be insight that they have that you just can't give them and you have to be aware of the things that you can't give them and go find that to be able to make sure they have the right supports in place.
49:46
Speaker 1
Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you for that.
49:48
Speaker 2
I didn't mean to put you on the spot like that.
49:50
Speaker 3
No, all good.
49:51
Speaker 1
Okay, good.
49:51
Speaker 2
I also put you on the spot like that. I guess I did do that. We can shift gears a little bit. Thank you for all this. So I would like to, we are in some ways here celebrating black books. We're talking about Marcus Books here for Marcus Books. All those black books are in the country. Got the National Association of Black Bookstores who put this event on. And in the book, you talk a lot about how one of the ways you really came to understand your blackness, not as a cultural identity, but as a political identity, was through reading. Can you mention some books that you felt like really helped you figure out, helped you sort of understand who you were and how you existed in this world?
50:31
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.
50:32
Speaker 3
The first one that was really the catalyst was the autobiography of Malcolm X.
50:38
Speaker 2
Yes.
50:39
Speaker 3
But after that, then became Wretched of the Earth, Black Skin, White Masks, Revolutionary Suicide, Baldwin, Angela Davis, Steve Biko, all of the black revolutionaries that gave me a political understanding and a historical understanding, not only of blackness and how it shows up within society, but also the institutions that are working against us. through that process gave me an understanding to be able to contextualize all of my experiences growing up. It gave me a better understanding of what I was previously navigating and also what I'm going to be navigating moving forward.
51:25
Speaker 1
Absolutely.
51:26
Speaker 2
Thank you for that. Thank you for that list. That's a great list to have. And I really do, Audubon from Malcolm X was the book that I read too that was like, I really feel like it's such a great window into America. And even though it was written in the 60s, it still applies. It still applies. Let's talk about some more current things happening. The mm-hmm section.
51:50
Speaker 1
Mm, mm, mm.
51:52
Speaker 2
She's like, yeah, that's what I came for, yes. We can read the book, Kamau. Get to the news. It's not often, and I've seen you talk about this a lot, it's not often I talk to somebody who's in an active beef with Jay-Z. I mean, never, I've never talked to anybody. You've been very clear about how that all went down with Jay-Z. And I, as a person, would be like, if I heard Jay-Z say my name in a freestyle, I think, I don't know if I'd be outside again.
52:21
Speaker 1
You know what I mean? Like, it just feels like that's a lot.
52:25
Speaker 3
He's a person. Like, he's a person.
52:32
Speaker 1
Like, I.
52:35
Speaker 1
One, I.
52:36
Speaker 3
To be clear, I didn't seek out the beef.
52:39
Speaker 2
That's first. And I'm being funny by describing it as a beef. It is an intellectual disagreement. She said, I don't know about that.
52:48
Speaker 1
Okay, it's a beef. It's a beef. I'm sorry. I was trying to clean it up a little bit. You're right.
52:53
Speaker 3
Well, I would say it's an intellectual but also moral disagreement. And to me, part of the reason the conversation is happening is is as he went and did the deal with the NFL, I had tried to get in touch with him prior to that. He had been publicly supportive. I thought he was someone who would be supportive. So I had tried to get in contact to say thank you. And if there was anything that we could do together to build, like amazing. If not, no worries. Now, he would never take a meeting, never get on a call. Roc Nation had tried to recruit me during this time period. ultimately did not go with them but the first call I got from him was the day before he did his press conference to do his deal with the NFL I told him I completely disagree with it you may have seen the quotes but I told him you're selling the culture out to a bunch of.
53:56
Speaker 1
Racists again that's good writing.
54:04
Speaker 3
But it At that point in time, we're seeing major artists boycotting the Super Bowl. We're seeing collectively as a community, there's boycotts against the NFL. And he stepped in to fill that void. Now, the context prior to this is in 2017, there was a players owners meeting. And in that players owners meeting, we see Bob Kraft, who is the owner of the Patriots. New England Patriots.
54:39
Speaker 2
I'll ask.
54:39
Speaker 1
I'll ask.
54:39
Speaker 2
Calm down.
54:40
Speaker 3
We'll get there. But we see Bob Kraft come out in that meeting, and it's been reported on, that the elephant in the room is the kneeling in the protests. We need to end that. We see Terry Pegula, who is the owner of the Buffalo Bills, specifically say in that conversation, we need a black face. to help us end this, and also likened it to how the NRA used Charleston Heston to be able to advance their efforts. It was like, we need a figure like that, and we need a black face like that. Now, they had attempted this with the Players Coalition. Within the NFL, that didn't work. As we were going through litigation, they approached me with a deal. to lead their social justice initiatives. Which one we laughed at, but rejected. Also speaks to the audacity of the NFL.
55:46
Speaker 1
We won't hire you, but can you be our spokesperson?
55:50
Speaker 3
We're gonna blackball you for protesting police killing black folks, but also will you be the face of social justice for us? Like it's absurd. But also, you know, the third attempt was with Jay-Z. So I had all that context, shared that my one request coming out of that conversation was just keep my name out of it. Like, if you want to do a deal, do a deal. Own what comes with it, but keep me out of it. And we saw how he responded the next day in that press conference, you know, the we're past kneeling, trying to belittle the protest, the movement, all of that. In many ways, we see him aligned with the NFL owners. to be able to advance their interests. Now, again, I don't agree with the deal, but where my issue comes in is after that deal, because of the pushback that he got and the blowback that he got, then came all of the efforts to try to disparage me. And we got the calls from radio hosts and media hosts, media outlets. They're telling us right now, and his team's telling us, you don't want to play anymore. Oh, they're telling us you got multiple offers and you turn them down. And to me, it's one thing to say, hey, we have a difference of opinion and we're going to approach things differently. It's another to undermine a movement and then go out, try to disparage it and discredit in the process to make yourself look better. And also, even in thinking about the conversations that we're having right now, a lot of those conversations are because he did a freestyle a couple months ago. and brought me back up, and I didn't say anything. I didn't have anything to say about him. I'm focused on the work that we're doing and trying to advance. If you bring it back up in the midst of when we're going out and having conversations, people are going to ask. So I'm also not preemptively going out and looking to talk about it.
57:53
Speaker 2
And in the freestyle, he said that you had a non-disparagement agreement about the NFL. I think it's clear from tonight that you have not signed a non-disparagement agreement about the NFL.
58:01
Speaker 3
There is no non-disparagement. We will talk openly and freely about them.
58:25
Speaker 2
So you said the name Bob Kraft and people seem to have paid attention to the news recently. When the story happens with Ed Sheeran and Macklemore, and Macklemore says, free Palestine. What did he say?
58:41
Speaker 1
I can't remember.
58:41
Speaker 2
I can't remember.
58:44
Speaker 1
Free Palestine. OK, just want to make sure. I'm getting older.
58:49
Speaker 2
And like Macklemore says, that Sheeran told him that Bob Kraft called him and said that I'm not going to let you be in my stadium if Macklemore's on the tour. and I've called other billionaire NFL stadium owners to also agree. What's that called when billionaires all come together? It starts with a C?
59:11
Speaker 3
That would be collusion.
59:12
Speaker 2
Yes.
59:13
Speaker 3
That would be collusion. And doing it openly.
59:16
Speaker 1
Yes. Yeah.
59:18
Speaker 2
So I would imagine you had a very specific reaction to that when you had been fighting to say the NFL's colluded to not hire me, and then you see it happening in the world, and they're openly admitting it.
59:30
Speaker 3
Well, one, yes. Two, I think we should all think about in 2016 or 2017 as the NFL is colluding against me. At that point in time, they were trying to cover it up and hide it. And they were trying to pitch everybody on, no, we're not doing it. And they made up a list of reasons as to why I shouldn't be playing anymore. We're now at a point in 2026 where they have a level of comfort to actively play in our face and say, yeah, we'll collude and we'll say we're colluding. And what are you going to do about it? And I think that becomes a question for all of us is what actions are we willing to take to make sure that we send a message to them that we're not going to allow them to do this. So I think that is the opportunity in front of us as well.
1:00:31
Speaker 2
I would say one thing that I've noticed that the NFL and Jay-Z have been pretty successful about is turning these Super Bowl halftime shows into things that feel like bigger cultural moments so that people feel like they need to show up because there's a political message being said in the last couple years with Bad Bunny, with Kendrick. How do you navigate? Because I would imagine you're hearing about these things. oh my God, Kendrick's at the Super Bowl, Bad Bunny's at the Super Bowl, and people who align with you politically feel like they need to show up and watch these Super Bowl halftime shows. How does that sit? I would imagine people are going, did you see, oh no, you probably didn't see. And people who support you, but also want to see the Super Bowl halftime show.
1:01:14
Speaker 1
You know what I mean?
1:01:16
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of those in relation to why they feel like cultural moments and political moments is also because of how bad the NFL has been in relation to addressing issues. Like, getting someone black on stage for a halftime show felt revolutionary. And it's like, yeah, that should just be the norm because there's talented black artists that are some of the best in the world. Like, Bad Bunny is one of the biggest artists in the world. That's not even a political statement. He's just great at what he does.
1:01:54
Speaker 2
He's got the numbers.
1:01:56
Speaker 3
Ultimately, they're looking at this and making a business decision. Like, they want the most viewers. They're also looking at, well, what demographics are we trying to capture right now? We need black people? Okay, well, let's make sure we get more black halftime performers. Black people have been boycotting the NFL. Hey, we need to get more Latino viewers. Okay, well, we're going to bring Bad Bunny in to make sure we capture that demographic. And those become moments that in many ways feel political. And in some regard, they can be. But they also are not addressing the core issues politically. They're addressing everyday people's lives. And I think it's important for us to understand that while we have the entertainment that's being done, are they actually taking the actions to support communities in very real ways?
1:02:47
Speaker 1
Yes. No, they're not. Thank you for that. Thank you. A few more questions and we got to get out of here.
1:02:54
Speaker 2
So the other thing that we find out in the book is that your Know Your Right camps, you had started working on that before the kneeling. I think that's very important and the thing that we can't.
1:03:04
Speaker 1
Give it up for the Know Your Right camps.
1:03:08
Speaker 2
I always ask people on my podcasts if there's any causes they think people should know more about. It feels perfect to ask you, tell us about the Know Your Right camps and what's going on with them.
1:03:18
Speaker 3
So the Know Your Rights camp, We started ideating on this and bringing this to life at the end of 2015. And what actually kicked this off was the killing of Mario Woods. And I was sitting in the living room. I was watching the video. And I was like, he just got executed. Like, this is a firing squad. And on the tail end of that, I called my wife, then girlfriend, Nessa. And I'm like, we have to do something. We have to make sure that we make it home. And that was the initial impetus of Know Your Rights Camp. And from there, we started IDA, and how we build this out, what is that going to look like? And initially, it was, all right, we're going to teach the legal rights. We're going to teach the history. We're just going to make sure we make it home. And as we're going through that process, we're like, that feels like such a disservice. to say, hey, we're just going to do a camp to make sure we don't die. So that then became, well, what are all of the things that we can do to try to make sure our communities are thriving and we're able to build stronger communities? And that advanced the programming within Know Your Rights Camp. At this point, we've done Know Your Rights Camps across the country. We've done it internationally. And those in many ways become an organizing function for us where we can continue to do work directly in communities in all of the places that we've been, in partnership with the organizations that are doing work directly on the ground as well. Now, out of that, we've also built an autopsy initiative where we do free second independent autopsies.
1:05:14
Speaker 1
Of course.
1:05:15
Speaker 3
And this is for families who have lost a loved one in custody. whether that's police custody, whether that's incarceration, detention centers, ICE detention centers. So we were trying to address the needs in that way, and part of the reason that became a focal point, a little bit of background, is my lawyer, who was representing me in the NFL, previously had a case in Bakersfield. He had a client, the family had someone who was killed by police, but the sheriff was also the coroner. So I learned that that is not that uncommon. And in the instances that that's not the case, the relationship between the two entities is very close. So how do we bring transparency and clarity to that process? We put together Independent forensic pathologists that now do this work to be able to support families In 2020 we launched a legal defense initiative to protect protesters across the country pro bono legal services And this is in the wake of George Floyd being killed and everybody taking to the streets protesting that and being attacked in that process of protesting police killing Black folks again. We launched a COVID-19 initiative, providing PPE, providing rent relief, buying food from Black-owned businesses to be able to buoy them, and then distributing that into the community. So with Know Your Rights Holistically, we've just tried to approach it from a space of where the needs that are showing up in our community And how do we try to build a program around that to address those needs? And then how do we try to make sure we spread that as far as possible?
1:07:17
Speaker 2
Thank you for that. Thank you for that. And I want to highlight that you also did some work for Nolan Wells' family recently. I just think it's important, too, that we uplift his name. And also, please speak on that.
1:07:33
Speaker 3
I mean, in the The Nolan Wells case, it is imperative that we do everything we can to try to have transparency in that process, in clarity in that process. I feel deeply for his family. Not only is it a tragedy, but the actions that have been taken after that, that the family has had to endure, I think is pretty horrendous. I also think the legal process, at least what has been shared publicly thus far, has been horrendous. And collectively as a community, any lever that we can pull to try to help advance getting clarity and understanding of what truly happened are things that we should be doing. And for us, that was being able to support the second autopsy and trying to get some clarity around that. Now, as part of that, what was received in the second autopsy, you know, Nolan Wells throat was missing, his lungs were missing. Um, there were areas that we were not able to get clarity around because we actually didn't have, um, we didn't have everything that was needed for the forensic pathologist.
1:08:57
Speaker 2
Well, first of all, thank you for stepping into that. And thank you for speaking on that. And also, I think it's important because, and I joke earlier about how you're outside a lot now, I think sometimes, I know you don't want credit for all this stuff, but I think it's important that the people know that you're doing this stuff, that you're doing all this work, that it wasn't just about kneeling 10 years ago and getting a settlement check or whatever, that you are out there doing the work regularly or assigning people around you who know how to do the work to do the work. So I think it's important that you do all that. How do you feel about the fact that because you have entered cultural icon status in a way that few do, but that means people then can use you for whatever, they'll throw on your jersey to say they're with you and they may not actually be with you. What is it like to be sort of like, a thing that is Colin Kaepernick that is separate from the man that is Colin Kaepernick?
1:09:55
Speaker 3
I'm going to be honest. I haven't really thought about that a whole lot.
1:09:58
Speaker 2
I'm glad I asked the new question.
1:10:00
Speaker 1
I'm really proud of that.
1:10:01
Speaker 3
I haven't thought about that a whole lot.
1:10:02
Speaker 2
I just think about it because I see it happen to other people I know. But when somebody will step on stage with a Kaepernick jersey, they're sort of almost like, well, I'm with him. So then everything I do must be connected to him. You know what I mean?
1:10:16
Speaker 3
Yeah. But what I hope in those moments is as people are doing that, that they go out and take the actions to be able to support that. Because I'm truly grateful for people supporting and showing up in that way. But what is more important than that is we're doing the work to be able to support people directly on the ground. And I think while there are moments that people may feel like this is the cool thing to do or I want to support in that way. This is very real impact on people's lives. The actions that we take and how we show up every day has real impact on people's lives. And in some of those instances, that is life or death. So I think there's also a seriousness that we need to approach this with of we have to go out and do the work. We have to take the actions to be able to build and support each other And when people do throw a jersey on or stepping into a space, they're like, oh, I support. I appreciate it. And also, let's go out and do the work behind it.
1:11:27
Speaker 1
Yes, yes.
1:11:30
Speaker 2
Wear the jersey, but also bring receipts of the work you've done. Do you, Colin Kaepernick, I'm looking at you. You seem like you're in pretty good shape, brother. I hear you have a pretty strenuous workout routine that you seem to be sticking to.
1:11:45
Speaker 1
Do you believe there's still football in you?
1:11:48
Speaker 3
Absolutely. Absolutely. I will say also my training routine has created tension in our household because Nessa is mad when I wake up early in the morning. Her number one pet peeve is my protein shaker in the morning. I wake up, I make my shake, and it's Try to have me close the doors. There was one point she was like, if you're going to do it, go in the closet. So it's 445 in the morning. I'm in the closet shaking a protein shake. But still do my workouts every day, still train to make sure I'm ready and prepared. I think there's still a lot of football for me to play.
1:12:42
Speaker 1
Good to know. Good to know. Good to know. You've talked about Nessa a little bit. Spare some words for Nessa.
1:12:51
Speaker 2
Because in the book, it's very clear that she is the fire underneath, you know, that lights that get you lit up in every way.
1:12:58
Speaker 3
Yeah, shout out to Nessa, y'all. Well, one, obviously, love Nessa deeply. But as we talk about, you know, some of my own journey, Nessa is someone who She is the person that gave me the autobiography of Malcolm X. She is the person, as I was growing my hair out this time around and was pressed on, like, oh, don't you think he should cut his hair? Like, don't you think it would look more professional?
1:13:33
Speaker 1
Like your parents doing that?
1:13:35
Speaker 3
Yep. And she was like, no, I love his hair. And it was... Those moments become incredibly important.
1:13:46
Speaker 2
But also.
1:13:47
Speaker 3
As I protested in 2016, that's not something she ever asked for. And she didn't blink. It was immediately, okay, well, what do we have to do? And that, I would say having a partner that has that level of conviction and does not bat an eye allows you to go out into the world and show up in the world in a very definitive way. because you know you have someone that is right there by your side through it all. And I will say, as I am out in the world, and I think I can take pretty strong positions at times, Nessa also has a fire in her. But that fire is always towards the people and making sure that she is taking care of people and looking out for people. And that is just part of who she is as well. So I hope everybody goes out and finds themselves a Nessa because it is so important. And the impact that it has on your life is life changing.
1:15:00
Speaker 1
Great. Now, talk about being a dad.
1:15:07
Speaker 3
Oh, man. I love being a dad. It is so much fun. I have a four-year-old girl running around at home. It is so interesting to me to go through the process of like, you want to love on them so much. At the same time, you have to hold the boundaries and guardrails of like, no, we got to get these things done. But it's, To me, it's been interesting to be able to walk down this path of I want her to be independent. I want her to be bold. I want her to be fierce. But that also means in our own household, I know her first tests are going to be on us. And to give you a little bit of sense of who this little girl is, this was a couple months ago. And we're sitting at the dinner table. And she had not been doing a great job listening this day. She wasn't doing a great job with dinner. And she goes, well, Bubba, after dinner, can I play? At this point, I'm frustrated. I'm like, no, because one, you haven't ate your food. Two, you haven't done this. Three, you haven't done that. She goes, what's four? Oh! And that gave me some insight into what I'm going to be navigating for the rest of my life.
1:16:47
Speaker 1
Ladies and gentlemen, Colin Kaepernick.
1:16:52
Speaker 2
Colin Kaepernick. Thanks for listening to who's with me. Thanks to Colin Kaepernick. Thanks to his whole crew. Thanks to Tone who was there. It was a wild scene that night. There's a lot of people in the house. There was a lot going on. My mom came. Here, here's a picture of me and my mom and Colin Kaepernick. It's like a special Easter egg at the end of this. Colin was super nice to my mom. My mom was super, you know, she really connected with him.
1:17:21
Speaker 1
It was great to see.
1:17:22
Speaker 2
Yeah, and he really listened to my mom, which I just appreciated. You could tell he wasn't just paying lip service. He was actually paying attention to my mom, which was great for me to see. Again, his book, The Perilous Fight, is out now. I listen to it as an audio book. It's great as an audio book, but you can also get it in old school bookstore form. Get it for wherever you get your bookstores. I would say go to an independent bookstore because independent bookstores are guaranteed to be carrying this book, and it means a lot to spend that money locally. Or you can go to bookshop.org to get his book there, where you can also preorder my debut children's book that comes out in a couple weeks, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. So yeah, you get Colin's book and my book as a two-pack. All the links are in the show notes. And Colin mentioned his organization, Know Your Rights. You can find out more about them at knowyourrights.org. It's about teaching young folks, young black folks about how to navigate white supremacy. That's what my takeaway is and how to, and to teach them more about their world and civic engagement and to inspire them to achieve a lot in life. And it's been going, as he said, they started planning this before he ever took a knee. So he's really been committed to this for a long time. Again, special thanks to Marcus Books and the National Association of Black Booksellers. And thanks to the Black Repertory Theater. And thanks to Rapid Green Productions, Pushkin Industries, and who knows Best Productions. Special thanks to Chris Dowd from Fishbone. I talked to Chris Dowd last week. Fishbone is currently working on their new album. And as the official ambassador for Fishbone, I feel responsible to tell you. And again, this week, do something good for yourself, for your community, and for the world. And also make sure you're registered to vote. You can go to vote.org or aclu.org slash vote. Man, you got a lot of homework this week. Make sure you're registered to vote for those midterms.
1:19:04
Speaker 1
Thank you.
1:19:05
Speaker 3
Thank you.
The Host
