W. Kamau Bell
W. Kamau Bell is a Peabody Award winner, 4X Emmy Award winner, documentary filmmaker, stand-up comedian, Celebrity Jeopardy! champion, Official Ambassador of the band Fishbone, self-proclaimed #1 Bruce Lee Expert…
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The interview starts with Kamau giving Don Lemon his flowers. The two reflect on their shared history at CNN, with Bell recalling that Lemon consistently welcomed and supported newer talent at the network. Lemon pushes back on claims made after his departure that he was difficult to work with.
The conversation shifts to Lemon’s post-CNN career and his commitment to field reporting. Lemon explains that he has always been a reporter at heart and that getting out into the streets is essential to understanding public sentiment, citing his early read that Trump would win in both 2016 and 2024.
Discussion turns to Trump’s potential interest in a third term, with both agreeing he should be taken seriously given his track record of delivering on policy promises, while noting his failure to lower the cost of living. They also raise concerns about Trump treating the White House as personal property and his apparent contempt for judicial authority.
The topic moves to CNN, Politico, and MSNBC being removed from the White House press pool. Lemon argues this is the result of corporate media bending to political pressure for financial gain, and calls for journalists to collectively refuse participation in briefings that compromise press freedom.
Lemon then discusses his arrest in Minneapolis, describing it as an ongoing legal case characterized by deliberate delays. He also highlights fellow journalist Georgia Fort, who was arrested at the same time, noting she deserves equal recognition.
The conversation broadens to the evolution of journalism, from a one-way broadcast model to the social media era, with Lemon stressing the importance of media literacy. Topics then covered include the Chris Brown and Jasmine Crockett controversy, the Israel-Gaza conflict and the debate over the word “genocide”, and the role of independent journalism.
Lemon closes by endorsing the Committee to Protect Journalists as a cause worth supporting. You can do so at https://cpj.org
Who’s With Me is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Chris Dowd. Distributed by Pushkin Industries.
Hey everybody, it's me, W. Kamau Bell.
00:17
Speaker 2
Welcome to episode 20 of my podcast, Who's With Me? Today, my guest is independent journalist, Don Lemon. I never thought I'd say that about Don Lemon. Independent journalist, Don Lemon. Who's With Me? The podcast is based on my sub stack of the same name. If you want to keep up with what I'm doing and going on, the best way is actually to subscribe to my sub stack. The link is in the notes.
00:38
Speaker 1
It's free.
00:38
Speaker 2
I mean, you can throw me some money if you want to, but it's the best way to keep up with what I'm doing. Like, for example, this Thursday, if you're in the Bay Area or the extended Bay Area in Northern California, I'll be at Stanford University doing stand-up comedy. October 1st at Stanford University doing stand-up comedy. Stanford's been in the news recently. Apparently, they took a photo of some Stanford kids and swapped out a Latino kid for an AI black girl. And then they also took the other two kids in the photo and slimmed them down a little bit with some AI. So Stanford, we're going to talk about it. Again, this Thursday, October 1st. Got a couple great openers for my Stanford show. My good friend, Nato Green, and Dr. Seema Yasmeen, who is a doctor, medical doctor, and also a stand-up comic.
01:24
Speaker 1
She used to be a contributor at CNN. That's how I know her.
01:26
Speaker 2
I don't know if we've ever met in life, but we've corresponded as contributors on CNN.
01:31
Speaker 1
Back in the day.
01:32
Speaker 2
So anyway, yeah. So I'm looking forward to that show because I don't have to get on a plane to go there.
01:36
Speaker 1
I just have to... Maybe I'll take the train down. Who knows? You don't care. Also, again.
01:40
Speaker 2
I have a show next year, February 20th, in Bellingham, Washington. Again, who knows if that's even going to be a date, February 20th, 2027. We've got the midterms coming up, November 3rd. Make sure you vote by the time November 3rd shows up, and we'll see what happens. Also, as always, my children's book, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese, comes out October 27th. Pre-order it now. The pre-orders help us get on the bestseller list. So I would recommend you either go to bookshop.org, which supports independent bookstores, or order it directly from an independent bookstore. And if you go to bookshop.org, you can find the independent bookstores in your town. Hopefully you have one. Hopefully you have many. Yeah, so please order Rock, Paper, Scissors, and Cheese. It's a picture book for young kids. It stars my family, as you can see when you look in the book when it comes out. But yeah, it's a fun time. It's about creativity, about families, figuring out how to defeat boredom. Me and my friend Adam Mansback, who wrote Go the Fuck to Sleep, wrote this book, and the art is by Brianna Chambers, and she really captured all my family, including my mom. I've never done this before. I'm nervous about a kid's book, but it's a great book. We had a great time writing it, so please pre-order Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. If you do nothing today, pre-order Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. We'll do lots of other things, like take care of yourself and your family. So last week was a pretty big week for Who's With Me, the podcast. We taped this interview with Don Lemon, and then also, We taped an interview for upcoming episodes with one Megan Rapinoe and one with young Colin Kaepernick. So the Colin Kaepernick episode was actually recorded as a part of his book tour.
03:14
Speaker 1
So it was live in front of an audience. We've never done that before. It wasn't really our event.
03:18
Speaker 2
It was a part of the National Association of Black Booksellers. So they were sort of running it and it was at the Black Repertory Theater in Berkeley. And it was a part of Marcus Books, which is the oldest black bookstore in the country. Here in Oakland was promoting it. So yeah, it was a lot of people coming together. And Colin Kaepernick was great. And we really had a great conversation. But it's going to be very different because it's live in front of an audience. They even had audience on stage.
03:41
Speaker 1
So what's going on?
03:42
Speaker 2
Kind of everything. As you know, if you follow my work, I have three daughters. My oldest daughter is now a teenager. And I think that really means a lot right now or really lands a lot right now because... I'm reading a lot of stories in the news about teenage kids, about black teenagers. I'm thinking about Nolan Wells. I'm thinking about this young woman named Kendall Francis, an ex-LSU student. I'm also thinking about the Cornell 7. And if you don't know about all these cases, I can just give you a heads up. But it's, you know, please go do your own homework. Nolan Wells, you probably know about. That's the most famous of those three news stories. Yeah, they just did an autopsy on Nolan Wells' body. Again, Nolan Wells went out partying with his all-white friend group in southern Mississippi on an island off the coast of Mississippi. And his friends came back, and Nolan never did, and they found him dead. And his friends had his cell phone, and they said he wanted to stay on the island, which didn't make any sense. And, you know, just every black person, every black parent was like, none of that makes any sense. I mean, because at the very least, I would say this. You don't leave your friend behind. They said he wanted to stay behind, but why do you have his phone? And also, if you're a good friend, especially at that age, you don't leave your friend behind. And if your friend insists on staying behind, then you immediately call his people and say, hey, he's staying behind. We just want to let you know. But why did they have his phone? And all of them have lawyered up, and they've said they had nothing to do with it. But now an autopsy was done, an autopsy that was partially paid for by Colin Kaepernick, actually. I don't know if it was partially, but he gave money for the autopsy. And it's just the whole thing. The grand jury has come back and said, there's no foul play. There was an accidental drowning, but then the new autopsy and some digital forensics has happened. There's no, apparently no water found in his breathing passages or in his stomach, which if it was a drowning, the front water there. Also, they've done a forensic analysis of his cell phone and it was clear that Snapchat videos and messages were deleted.
05:41
Speaker 1
And some of them were deleted after he died and they've.
05:44
Speaker 2
Recovered some of those messages. So, It's as clear something fucked up is happening. That's the only way I can do it. Something racist is happening. Because even, let's just say for a second that none of his friends are guilty. The fact that it took social media, black people on social media to call out the story when he was just missing to get any measure of justice in play. Racism is happening. White supremacy is happening. But also, it's just too suspicious that all your friends lawyer up. And as I read the Nolan Wells story, all I can think about is my teenager. And I talk with my teenager. I was like, hey, I know you. Luckily, she's got a lot of black friends. Thank you, black Jesus. But she's also got some white friends, of course, because we live in the Bay Area. And I had to say to her, I was like, hey, you hear about that Nolan Wells thing?
06:30
Speaker 1
She said, yeah.
06:31
Speaker 2
And we talked about it. I said, look, just be careful. Be careful going places with groups of just white people. And we don't live in southern Mississippi, but I still felt like you're You're old enough to be suspicious and old enough to sort of go, hey, my dad told me this. Maybe I shouldn't go with these people. And I don't want to think I didn't tell you this. So that's where we're at. And then we have this story of the Cornell 7, which is one of those things that sort of swept across my social media. And I didn't really know what it was. I knew it was something to do with sexual assault. And then you go, God, I got to Google this and figure what this is. And this Cornell 7 thing is just fucking crazy.
07:14
Speaker 1
Awful.
07:14
Speaker 2
It is just, I had to tell my mom about.
07:16
Speaker 1
It and she was just like, I felt sick telling her. We don't know the name of the woman.
07:23
Speaker 2
She's going by Jane Doe because it's now, she's suing Cornell University, Ivy League school. She is suing Cornell University because she is accusing seven Cornell University students, some of whom don't go there anymore, some of whom have moved on from Cornell or graduated, a couple of whom were expelled, of raping basically gang raping her that they gave her some ketamine. She passed out. They then got on the group chat and invited dudes over. And apparently five more dudes showed up and they sexually assaulted her over seven hours. It's just the worst story. She then reported the assault three weeks later and the university got involved.
08:06
Speaker 1
But here's the thing.
08:07
Speaker 2
And I think this is the important part about this story and also about the story with Kendall Francis, uh, Kendall Francis, uh, said that in October 2025, an LSU athlete invited her over, she was an LSU student at the time, to, I guess, to hang out at his dorm, and he raped her, and she reported it to the LSU authorities, as did this Jane Doe at Cornell, reported it to the Cornell University authorities, and those young women thought they were going to law enforcement, which, let's be clear, law enforcement is rarely the best in sexual assault cases when women claim, want to say that they were assaulted. You know, I did a whole documentary about that, which I've mentioned on the podcast.
08:51
Speaker 1
People go, why don't women tell? Women do tell.
08:53
Speaker 2
And they often don't get the support they need from law enforcement, often don't get the support they need from their community. So these young women bravely stepped forward and told their authorities of their university. In the Cornell case, the university apparently found that they had sexually assaulted her, these seven students. They expelled two of them, temporarily suspended some, and then some, according to the news, had to write papers, I guess, about sexual assault. That was their punishment, writing papers. That's what her lawsuit alleges. So she is now suing the school. Yeah, so she is not in the school anymore.
09:32
Speaker 1
This is Cornell.
09:33
Speaker 2
We don't know her name, but the names of these, I'm going.
09:38
Speaker 1
To say demons, are coming out.
09:41
Speaker 2
And really, it's about the institution of Cornell University that they, their law enforcement on campus is clearly there to protect Cornell University, not to protect this young lady. And it's the same as LSU. This lady, this young woman did inform the LSU authorities. and they did an investigation and they found that this, they believe that this young man, this student athlete at LSU was guilty of this, but they didn't then hand it over to criminal, to like actual law enforcement. They just sort of said, yeah, he's guilty and we'll handle it here. And she was like waiting for law enforcement to show up and law enforcement did not show up. She was waiting for law enforcement to investigate her contact, like outside of the university.
10:24
Speaker 1
And they did not. So then she made a video to call out LSU.
10:29
Speaker 2
And the thing that sort of binds all three of these together is that justice is only happening because people.
10:36
Speaker 1
On social media are demanding it.
10:39
Speaker 2
The New York authorities, New York state authorities are opening up an investigation back into the Cornell University case. And I believe it's also happening with the LSU case that there's going to be an investigation opened up. But it's only happening because people on social media are calling for it. Same thing happened with Nolan Wells. People on social media, black people on social media were like, hey, this boy is missing. Hey, this boy is dead. Hey, this doesn't make sense. Hey, these guys are luring up. And it's just a lot to put on us. The young woman in the Cornell University case, we don't know anything about her. She's Jane Doe. But I would say we do know that Kendall Francis is black. We know that Nolan Wells was black. And black people feel like we have to be our own vigilantes. We have to be our own journalists and reporters. But every black person on social media who cares suddenly has to make a TikTok or an Instagram reel about Nolan Wells or about the Cornell 7 or about Kendall Francis so that we can get justice, some measure of justice, not even get justice, some measure of justice, And that's a lot when you're already living in a country that clearly doesn't give a shit about us anyway.
11:51
Speaker 1
It's just a lot.
11:52
Speaker 2
And that's why people often, me and Don talk about this. He at one point says, do you consider yourself a journalist? And I go, yeah, I accept it now. But I didn't for years because I was like, I'm not a journalist. I'm just a person who cares and happens to have a loud platform. And I'm not a journalist, but I kind of accept it like, all right, I think I am a journalist. I'm just doing it differently. you know, me and Don came up very different ways. I came through standup comedy. He came through old school, traditional journalism. He's a little bit older than me. So he was back doing journalism in the nineties when journalists were pretending to be neutral all the time. And then he made the transition to 2000s and then he came out as gay and then he became sort of started. And then when Trump was in office, that's when he did the famous Donald Trump is a racist thing on CNN. So the president is a racist and he started to put his opinions out there more. And First of all, I think every journalist has an opinion, and even when they don't give you their opinion, they're giving you their opinion. But I think it's been interesting to watch the evolution of Don Lemon, and especially in these times when we need people to be loud and clear about which side they're on. And so I'm really proud of Don, who I've known since I was back at CNN, back when I started at CNN in like 2015.
13:03
Speaker 1
We talk about that in this episode.
13:05
Speaker 2
And we also talk about the fact that Don isn't afraid of Pissing people off, you know, which is funny because that's not the kind of journalism he was trained in. But he's not afraid of pissing people off and getting some dirt on him. And recently he got a little bit of dirt on him. That's what I'm saying. I don't know if Don would say that. When he got into the middle of the Jasmine Crockett giving an award to a commendation to.
13:28
Speaker 1
Chris Brown in Texas.
13:29
Speaker 2
So he was, I think he tried to both sides a little bit too much in my opinion. But we talk about that and how he sort of doesn't mind getting some dirt on him. And also now that he's an independent journalist, we talk about how he's outside in the streets. He's out there in the streets every day doing the damn thing. And that means sometimes he gets caught up. He recently got caught up being out there in the streets back in February, I believe it was, when he was in Minneapolis. And him and a bunch of people got arrested for just being outside. And there was a peaceful protest. And Don and I saw another independent journalist named Georgia Forte. were outside reporting on the peaceful protest and they got scooped up by federal authorities. And we talk about his case a little bit. He can't talk about too much, but we also talk about whether it's better to be famous in that situation or not famous. Cause, cause Georgia Fort is a black independent journalist and she's not famous. And Don is a famous black independent journalist. And I argue that it's better to be famous in that situation. But he says that means everything happens in the case gets blamed on him. But anyway, we had a great conversation.
14:32
Speaker 1
I was happy. He would talk to me, uh, Anyway, here's my conversation with Don Lemon. Hey, thanks for watching an episode of Who's With Me. If you're on YouTube, please like and subscribe, share, hit that hype button. I hear it makes all the difference. Please like, subscribe, share, hit the hype button. Thank you. Welcome Don Lemon to Who's With Me, my podcast. Thank you for joining me.
15:05
Speaker 3
You're welcome. Thank you.
15:06
Speaker 1
It's good to see you, Kamal. It's good to be seen and good to see you.
15:09
Speaker 3
Remember we used to do something like every week or something together, we would do a talk and then it would end up getting everybody at the network in trouble and we'd get....
15:17
Speaker 2
Well, that's what I'm talking about. I want to start there because I start every podcast giving people their flowers. This is a thing I do to say, I don't just have anybody on the podcast. I try to have people on that I have them in community with. And I remember when I first got to CNN and they were trying to integrate me into the family of CNN, Amy and Tellus, who you know, was like, would you be on Don Lemon's show? And at the time, Don, I got to admit, I mostly knew you for fighting with Talib Kweli in the streets of Ferguson.
15:43
Speaker 1
And so I was like, maybe? He seems kind of. But I will say this.
15:51
Speaker 2
Every time I was on your show from the very beginning, you were very clear that you were welcoming me to CNN and that I was a part of the family and that you wanted.
15:58
Speaker 1
Me to succeed.
15:58
Speaker 3
Everybody that came on, all of the new people that came on, And so that's why I was quite surprised by what they said when I left, that I was hard to work with.
16:07
Speaker 1
I'm like, me?
16:08
Speaker 3
What?
16:08
Speaker 1
What are you talking about?
16:10
Speaker 3
You knew that was some bullshit, right?
16:11
Speaker 2
We can talk about it, because I certainly knew that there was a lot of egos in CNN, first of all.
16:17
Speaker 1
There's a lot of like.
16:18
Speaker 2
So I always felt when I was there that I was just trying to stay against the wall and stay out of sight until I was asked for. Because it did not feel like, I felt like an outsider. Not in a bad way, but just like there's a lot going on.
16:32
Speaker 4
Yeah, you were like, I want to stay out of the fray. There's a lot happening here. And this ain't my business. This is not my business. And I'm going to keep my head down until somebody says, come over here. I was very aware that even the women in the makeup room were higher up on the totem pole than I was.
16:46
Speaker 1
So I was like, I'm not trying to cause any problems. Thank you. You're right.
16:49
Speaker 3
The women in the makeup room were higher up because they make everybody look good. So, you know, you were going to go before they did. Unless you knew how to do makeup.
16:57
Speaker 1
Yes, I was like, thank you. Please. I did not. I did not. So, yeah, so I want to say that.
17:01
Speaker 2
And I even want to highlight the fact that I remember, and I'm sure you remember this, that I got reached out to after Chappelle had come out with one of his specials talking about trans people. He's had so many. And I got reached out to by your producer saying, hey, come out. Do you want to come on the show and talk about Chappelle and the trans thing? Because you did an episode of United Shades about black trans women in Dallas. And I was a little bit like, I don't want to go on TV and look like I'm beefing with Dave Chappelle.
17:25
Speaker 1
And then you called me directly. and said, I need you to come on. Do you remember this? Yes, I do. Kind of, yeah. No, no, it's fine if you don't.
17:33
Speaker 2
Or maybe it was a text, but it was definitely a reach out from you personally that said, I want you to come on tonight to talk about this. And I did, and then I was out in the streets and people talked to me about, why are you talking about Chappelle? But I appreciated the fact that you had specifically said, I want you to come on tonight, because I did an episode about trans women.
17:51
Speaker 1
In Dallas, Texas.
17:51
Speaker 3
Well, thank you for that. Look, and you're always on the mark, Kamau Bell. I've never known you to make a real misstep. I've had some doozies, but you're pretty much on top of your game. But I thought it was an important conversation. And as you know, I'm not like a gotcha person. I'm not going to ambush you when you come on. You feel the way you feel, then that's fine. And I feel the way I feel. And if we agree, fine. If we don't agree, then that's a whole other show. You know?
18:15
Speaker 1
Yeah.
18:17
Speaker 2
And the final flowers I want to give you for is, man, if there is anything I never expected you to be, was outside all the time. And in your new era, you are outside all the time. And I just, I saw you as a guy who really, and you can talk about this, enjoyed that, like, I have a studio, everybody comes here, whether it's electronically or in the studio, and I get to talk to everybody who I want to talk to.
18:40
Speaker 1
But now you're out there in the streets, specifically.
18:43
Speaker 2
Obviously in Minneapolis where you got caught.
18:46
Speaker 1
Up out in the streets over some bullshit. We can talk about that.
18:49
Speaker 2
But I just appreciate the fact that you have, at this point in your career, when you don't, it seems like you don't really need.
18:54
Speaker 1
To be out there in the streets, but you have decided to go out there.
18:56
Speaker 3
Well, because I've always, I'm glad you think that. Look, did I enjoy the studio?
19:00
Speaker 1
Of course.
19:00
Speaker 3
Did I enjoy it? I enjoyed all of it. But I never think that anything is permanent. And I've always been a reporter at heart. Every time I wanted to go out in the street and wanted to go on big stories more and more and more. And, you know, sometimes they had their picks who they thought should go. And then whenever they let me out, I killed it. Like, it was like, you were not going to beat me on a story. I broke everything. And especially if it was a black story, I'm like, mm-mm, I got this, right? So I always wanted to go out more. And my entire career, pretty much... Folks at the networks pushed me towards anchor. They're like, we need an anchor. You're a very good anchor. And then they put me in the field and they go, you're a very good reporter. And I said, well, why don't you let me field anchor? So I would try to get out as much as possible. But you say I don't need to be out there. I think I do need to be out there. Because... Well, I would say when you.
19:50
Speaker 1
said by don't, I mean like you have choices.
19:52
Speaker 2
It's not a thing that like, there's a sort of a new style, style of journalist right now that they started out there in the world. They didn't, there was not an, there was not a studio to go to where you seem like you've decided to actively go out there. I don't mean I, you may as a human need to be out there, but it seems like you have choices also as a, as a, Yeah.
20:09
Speaker 3
I mean, I didn't need to go out there. I don't have to be on, right? I could just chill and put my feet up. But I can't do that. And I said that I had to be out there. I feel that I have to be out there because that's where you get the information. Every big story, if it's a breaking news story, whether it's a shooting or a bombing or a war or whatever it is, a plane crash or a train crash, you're doing man on the street reporting because you're talking to people at the scene. So I don't look at it as something like, oh my gosh, I'm above that or beyond that. That's just called basic journalism 101. And also, especially in this day and age, where you get so many people, as you know, sitting around on these big shiny desks in suits and cocktail dresses and hair, full of hair and makeup, and they're all interviewing each other every single day. It's like, oh, this person, what is this? When you get out there and talk to the people, that's how you know in 2024 that Donald Trump was probably going to win. And when people were like, oh, Don, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm hearing a lot of Trump out there. You know, as I told you, I think in 2016, I said, this man's probably going to win. People were mad at me. And that's because I get out and talk to people. A real life poll group and polling and real life focus groups on the streets.
21:25
Speaker 1
Well, same.
21:26
Speaker 2
When I was doing United Shades, because I started when Obama was still in office in his second term. And as I was out there, I was also like, I think this Trump thing is actually more serious than people in New York or even people in Berkeley where I was living at the time think it is.
21:42
Speaker 1
Well, you know, right?
21:43
Speaker 3
Because they tell you. I was out in Brooklyn the other day and you think like you walk up to some, most people think you walk up to a black man or whatever, he's going to be like, oh yeah, this guy was like Trump 2028. And I'm like, okay, this brother. Yeah.
22:00
Speaker 1
We can get into lots of this.
22:01
Speaker 2
How seriously do you take when Trump starts to, to play footsies with the idea of Trump 2020?
22:08
Speaker 3
I think you always take the person who is the president of the United States seriously. And pretty much every promise that he has made, pretty much, like policy-wise, he has delivered. Like he said, look what I'm going to do with immigration. I'm going to do this for taxes. I'm going to do this with healthcare. And he did all of them. The only thing that, things that he hasn't been able to deliver on, and that is on pretty much the economy. I was going.
22:37
Speaker 2
To say, the ones that people would love him to deliver on is lower gas prices, no more foreign wars.
22:44
Speaker 3
Lower the price of goods. I'm going to give you a doge check. I'm going to give you a tariff rebate or refund check. None of those things have come to fruition, and those are the things that people want. For all the people who are crowing about, oh, he gave me a STEMI check, back in 2020, whatever, during COVID. I'm trying to tell them these people are so misinformed. That wasn't Donald Trump. Donald Trump just wanted, he halted them, right? He delayed them to put his name on it. That was Nancy Pelosi. That was the Speaker of the House who did that. And then now that he's in a position to actually maybe be able to do it again, he's not doing it. Did you get your COVID check? Did you get your tariff check?
23:24
Speaker 1
No, I haven't got my tariff check.
23:25
Speaker 3
Your dose check?
23:26
Speaker 1
Somebody added it up.
23:27
Speaker 2
He's got, he owes us 13,000, I think 13,500 bucks.
23:30
Speaker 1
He's what he owes us.
23:31
Speaker 3
Does that include the 5,000 one for voting now?
23:34
Speaker 1
That includes the new one. Yeah.
23:35
Speaker 3
Yeah.
23:35
Speaker 2
That includes the new, the bribe to vote for him that somehow isn't illegal because somehow nothing is illegal when Trump does it.
23:41
Speaker 3
Yeah. But to answer your question, yeah, I take it seriously. And look, he's got a Supreme court that is basically under his thumb. Um, And if he, he's definitely going to try and no one has been able to stop him. He even defies federal judges right now.
23:57
Speaker 1
So we'll see.
23:58
Speaker 2
I'm glad you take it seriously because I take it really seriously too, because it's very clear. If you just look to what he's, he's done to the white house with that ballroom, like he's been told several times, you're not allowed to do these things. You're not allowed to tear it down or with the Kennedy center. It's very possible. He's going to knock down the Kennedy center, even though judges are going to tell him he can't do that. I just heard today that, that, that the arc that he wants to build, Because he's not allowed to build it, he's turning into, well, we need it for strategic. We'll have drones and weapons inside the Ark because we need it for strategic purposes.
24:32
Speaker 3
What do you want me to say to that? I don't even know what to say to that. It's crazy. But again, we shouldn't be surprised. You heard him say, oh, in the new ballroom, there's going to be all kinds of weaponry and, I don't know, atomic. He's got weapons inside the new ballroom or outside that can probably shoot people. I'm worried that he's going to use that ballroom to be a bunker and not come out.
24:53
Speaker 1
I mean, and he would not.
24:54
Speaker 2
He's only learning from the history of dictators and authoritarians if he does something like that.
24:58
Speaker 1
Am I wrong? No, you're not wrong.
25:00
Speaker 2
Haven't you thought that? No, he said, I need it for a bunker. They're like, there's already a bunker in the White House that is perfectly fine. But I think the fact that he's building one to his specifications is because he plans on being here for a while. I mean, I think about the White House. You don't own the White House. You're basically renting or leasing the White House. But he's treating it like he owns it. And to me, if you start treating it like you own it, that means you're not leaving.
25:22
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, come on.
25:25
Speaker 1
Yes.
25:26
Speaker 3
It's public housing. There's no renting or leasing. He's living in there for free.
25:30
Speaker 1
He's living in there for free, yeah.
25:32
Speaker 3
And making a lot of money. Most people wish that they could move into public housing and then become billionaires. I'm just saying.
25:38
Speaker 2
Yeah, and use that public housing as a way to become a billionaire. All right, let's go to some recent news. CNN, Politico, MSNOW have been uninvited, kicked out of the White House press pool.
25:52
Speaker 3
What are your thoughts on that? First they came for them. somebody else, and then nobody did anything, and then they came for them, and then they came for me, and there was nobody to stand for me. And don't I know. And so I don't want to gloat or anything like that, but I told you so. I've been telling them for years since I was there, which is part of the reason, and I believe the main reason that I got kicked out. And then I told everybody, everybody when I got arrested, if they do this to me, they can do it to you. Not only can they, they will do it to you. This administration And this president cares nothing about the First Amendment, cares nothing about the freedom of the press. And that is not me being, that's not an opinion. He tells you, he calls the press fake news. He just kicked them out, right? And so what he's doing is wrong. However, I think that they did it to themselves because they bent the knee. They settled lawsuits when they didn't have to because they wanted to do business, right? And that's not necessarily journalists there. Those are the people who own the company, right? The people who are going to make hundreds of millions of dollars off mergers. mergers they wanted to go through. And if you have like a Don Lemon or Jim Acosta or Kamau Bell sitting there fucking it up by saying, well, this president is crazy.
27:05
Speaker 1
And they're like, no, no, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh.
27:07
Speaker 3
You know what I'm saying? So they did it to themselves and now they're getting kicked out. When the folks said, stand up to these people, as you say, they don't own you. And if you have to do, I just don't believe that it's worth any amount of money if you're really a journalist. And the journalists aren't going to make that much money anyways. They're just hanging on to whatever contracts that they have now until the gravy train is over. And so, look, I get it. I'm not judging. I'm just saying that's what's happening, in my opinion. But I think it's corporate media right now. They've completely sold their souls to this administration, and now the chickens are coming home to roost.
27:45
Speaker 2
What would you, because people always on the outside are like, why don't the journalists, like, you know, because he's been rude to journalists in the White House.
27:52
Speaker 1
Often the journalists he's rude to are black women. No, you know, no surprise.
27:57
Speaker 2
And people on the outside who are not journalists, just people in America are like, why aren't the journalists all standing up together? Why aren't they saying something? Why aren't they doing something? What do you think journalists should do in these instances when they're seeing their colleagues being verbally assaulted either by President Trump or the press secretary or anyone else in there?
28:17
Speaker 3
Have a backbone, have some balls. I look at journalists as doctors and attorneys where you do no harm, you take an oath. And I think the same thing, the best way to do no harm is to tell the truth and not let the gatekeepers influence what you can report on. Because as I've been saying for months now since it happened to me, the moment you have people start telling you who you can report on, how you can report on it, where you can report on it, and all of the whatever, who, what, when, where, why, and how, it's over. It's no longer a free press. And that's what's happened. He's telling you, you can't report on me unless you report on me this way. This is how you have to report on. This is who you can report on. And you can't come to the White House. This is where you can report on it. And this is, as a Pentagon is telling you, by making, they've been saying, you have to sign this thing. They're telling you what you can report on. And that's what fascists do. That's what dictators do. That's what authoritarians do. And so that's what's happening right now. If they want to fix this, and they're not going to do it, because everybody, it's all about the Benjamins, right? They would stop making newsrooms, corporate centers, profit centers for networks, and just let journalists be journalists. Because The thing that matters the most at the end of the day is that we keep our democracy, we keep our First Amendment, that we keep our country and our politicians intact. Not that someone is going to make $ 100 million or $ 500 million on a merger. When is $ 100 million enough?
29:49
Speaker 1
How many are enough?
29:49
Speaker 3
And so, again, what should they do?
29:50
Speaker 1
I think that.
29:59
Speaker 3
When they're in the briefing room and someone like Caroline Levitt starts yelling at a reporter and abusing them, as soon as she's done, I would ask the same question as that reporter. Or I would ask Donald Trump why he feels it's okay to call a woman a piggy or to denigrate anybody, any reporter. I would say, first of all, with all due respect, Mr. President, we don't work for you. You work for us. We are the representatives of the people. We're asking questions for the people. And I think that maybe you should realize that. I'm not saying this because I personally care about what you have to say. This is my job. And I care that I'm doing my job for the American people. You can answer however you want, but you do not have to be insulting. And I would just say, in my humble opinion, as someone who's been a journalist and has been doing this for 30 years and had the experience reporting on everybody, I feel that this administration, including you, again, with all due respect, have forgotten that you are public servants. But they will never do that And I think everybody, as soon as they said CNN can't come in and whatever, everybody, I'd say, pack your shit up. Every network representative should be saying, pack your shit up and let's go.
31:07
Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
31:08
Speaker 3
And then doubling down on some actual reporting. Because, Kamau, you've been in this game for a long time. Mm-hmm. Much comes out of those briefings.
31:16
Speaker 1
That's a show. It's propaganda. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:19
Speaker 2
It's not where major news is usually made.
31:21
Speaker 3
No. No, because I use this example all the time. The reporters I see that's breaking the big shit.
31:27
Speaker 2
Mm-hmm.
31:28
Speaker 3
Are not in briefings or in photo ops in the thing, right? In the Oval Office. While they're in the Oval Office with the bullshit, they're really looking behind the scenes to see what is happening. I have never seen Maggie Haberman. I know she's been there before, but I haven't seen her recently when she's breaking all this shit. Have you seen her in the briefing room? No. Being insulted?
31:45
Speaker 2
No.
31:45
Speaker 3
She breaks some good shit, right? Have you seen Jonathan Swan in the briefing room?
31:48
Speaker 1
No.
31:49
Speaker 3
That's all I'm saying.
31:50
Speaker 2
Yeah, the job of those reporters... I mean, it's sort of an outdated thing. It sort of takes us back to a time before there was the internet. So people had to be in the room to say the president said this to put it in the newspaper so Americans could read it the next day. But technology has made that sort of an obsolete position. So if you're going to be in there, you might as well, yeah. Can I ask you a question?
32:11
Speaker 1
Sure.
32:13
Speaker 3
If everybody removed those cameras and those feeds from the White House in the briefing room and nobody showed up at his little photo ops in the afternoon in the Oval Office, what do you think would happen?
32:25
Speaker 2
He'd be so sad. He'd be so sad. Where did my party go? Quickly, get those press passes back to them. I'm not on TV. If we just stop reporting on his... Of course, there's a reason to pay attention to him, but not pay attention to everything he says every moment and under the circumstances to which he wants to create, of course.
32:48
Speaker 3
You can report on someone without actually having them on. You can call them for a response. You can ask their PR people for a response, but you don't have to put their face on there. You can say, does the president have a response to this? Okay, we reached out to the president. There was no response.
33:05
Speaker 2
Thank you. So you're saying as soon as they say no more CNN, no more MSNOW, no more Politico, and if you had been there and you'd be like, all right, let's all take our stuff and not show up here anymore.
33:30
Speaker 1
We're done here.
33:31
Speaker 3
If I was the head of a network, I would.
33:33
Speaker 1
If you're the head of a network.
33:33
Speaker 3
That's what I would say. Yeah. But if I were there, and that's probably the reason I'm not there, I would stand up for my fellow journalists if they were insulted or if their questions did not get answered. Because if, what do they say? None of us is free until we all are free.
33:47
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know?
33:48
Speaker 3
Yeah. And so same thing. ABC is next. um yeah they love cbs now nbc is next i'm just saying or it could be you know cnbc or.
33:58
Speaker 1
Whoever even fox yeah you're next yeah if.
34:02
Speaker 2
You don't stand up you're certainly on notice you're certainly like you i've told i've told you what i why i kicked them out because they're not nice enough to me so now everybody's on notice to be nice to me.
34:12
Speaker 3
Mm-hmm so i've heard that what i told that to you what if you told that to your.
34:16
Speaker 2
Wife I'd be sleeping in this office I'm talking to you in right now instead of just here for a few hours.
34:22
Speaker 1
I'd have a little pillow and a little sleeping bag over here.
34:27
Speaker 3
You must be nice to me.
34:28
Speaker 1
What?
34:29
Speaker 3
Yeah. Okay.
34:30
Speaker 1
So you mentioned a couple times, I want to bring this up, because I was in, after.
34:34
Speaker 2
Your arrest in Minneapolis, I went out there to make some videos too. Not because of that, but just sort of because everybody was going out there and I wanted to be, same way you want to be outside, I want to be outside.
34:43
Speaker 1
Okay. Can you talk a little bit about where that's at, your legal case?
34:50
Speaker 3
I can tell you what you read in the papers, what you read online. That's where it is. Delays, because they don't really have the manpower. There's an arrest in search of evidence, which you're supposed to get that first. And as we are taping this, the events that are happening today, I think, speak louder than anything about the case, my case. So what people are feeling today being kicked out... It's similar, not the same, because my freedom was taken away, right? At least they're free. At least they're not in jail. And so mine is a more severe case of what's going on now. So it's what you read. There are motions going on. People think the law is like law and order.
35:33
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'll be done in an hour.
35:35
Speaker 3
Yeah, you got the first 30 or 20 minutes where you set up the thing and it happened. And then all of a sudden, they go to court. They're looking for evidence. And they go to court. And then at the end, It doesn't happen that way because the process is the punishment. And as long as they can delay it and make your life miserable, that's what they will do. And that's what's happening now.
35:55
Speaker 2
So when we talk about your case, I also want to make sure because I think people get.
36:00
Speaker 3
They think it's over.
36:01
Speaker 2
Well, they think it's over. And they also forget there was more than one person arrested that day.
36:04
Speaker 3
Yeah, there were a number of people arrested. I think, was it like 50-some people? I can't remember. 30-some people?
36:09
Speaker 1
I can't remember exactly. And another journalist.
36:12
Speaker 3
I think there were four altogether, but Georgia Fort. The other two were journalists or journalists adjacent, the other few who they were. But the actual reporter or anchors was me and Georgia.
36:26
Speaker 2
Can you let these people, spare some words for Georgia Fort, let these people know?
36:31
Speaker 3
Well, Georgia Fort is dealing with the same shit that I'm dealing with. And Georgia Fort is, from what I can tell, was doing her job and appears to be a damn good reporter. I didn't know her. She was on my show. The reason that I knew who she was is that there was a community activist who came on the show talking about, he kind of disrupted a council meeting and had a moment and we had him on and he said, oh, you should have a local reporter. It's really great to have Georgia Fort on. And then there's another activist you should have on named Nakima. And I said, oh, sure. I had him on the show. I said, send me the information. He sent me the information, handed it off to producers, and then they came on the show, and that's it. I wouldn't know them from Adam had they not been on. And then when I decided to go there, which was just a couple days later, people said, oh, you should cover this. And I didn't even know Georgia was there covering it because I'd never met her in person. I don't remember seeing her. I don't think I saw her. Maybe I think I saw her outside of the church or maybe in the thing, but I had no idea who Georgia was, and I had never met Nakeem a day in my life. I had no idea.
37:30
Speaker 1
Yeah.
37:30
Speaker 3
So, um, um, yeah, so that's Georgia is, as I said, by my account seems to be a pretty damn good reporter. We can't be in contact with each other because that's just how it is legally, but I wish her the very best and I'm praying for her and hoping things work out for her.
37:45
Speaker 2
Yeah. I just think that it's important to mention her because, you know, you have the benefit of celebrity. You are, you're both journalists doing the same work, similar work, but you have the benefit of celebrity as far as like people are going to be tracking what happens to you in a way that they may not be tracking what happens to her.
38:00
Speaker 3
I understand that. Is that a benefit though? Because every little thing that happens in the case, even if it has nothing to do with me, they call it Don Lemon's case. And I'm like, this is funny.
38:09
Speaker 2
I mean, it is a benefit in that they can't just disappear you because people will be like, what happened to Don?
38:15
Speaker 1
You know what I mean? I think that like, Yeah, but if.
38:17
Speaker 3
A lawyer for some other, like a protester, makes a motion, they call it the Don Lemon case. But it's not actually the Don Lemon case. I just happen to be one of them in there. This is, you know, I think it's, anyways. But I get it because I'm the name.
38:29
Speaker 1
I mean, don't you think it helps a.
38:30
Speaker 2
Little bit that the trouble that comes with it, I would imagine, is outweighed by the fact that there's a little bit of protection because they can't just sort of, they can't ignore you. They can't just, they can't just string, if they string you out forever, you're going to be able to get on the public microphone and say something.
38:46
Speaker 1
Yeah.
38:46
Speaker 3
I guess so. But, I mean, I don't have the complexion for protection. I mean, I don't know if that offers– No, you.
38:52
Speaker 1
Don't have– I'm not saying you have– I'm not giving you white people points. Let me be clear. You're a black gay man.
38:57
Speaker 2
I'm saying that you are– I'm saying it's compared to someone like Georgia who's a black woman who already is dealing with the abuse that black women get just for existing and then is also in this situation and doesn't have the same level of fame that you have.
39:11
Speaker 1
That's all I'm saying.
39:12
Speaker 3
Yeah. Do you think that this would be, if I wasn't this, if I wasn't there, what do you think this would be? Would you have heard about it? No.
39:21
Speaker 2
I think maybe I would have heard about it because I'm that level of nerd, but I think your average person wouldn't have heard about it at all.
39:27
Speaker 1
No, for sure.
39:28
Speaker 3
I wonder if anything would. have happened either.
39:30
Speaker 2
I mean, I think this administration has shown that it's willing to have people murdered on the streets. So I think lots of things could happen. So I think they still round people up and arrest them if they feel like they want to.
39:43
Speaker 1
I don't think that stops them from doing it.
39:45
Speaker 2
I think I think they underestimated Minnesota and Minneapolis just generally. I think they thought Minneapolis was going to be a soft touch. They didn't realize that the power of Minneapolis organizing and the power of Prince Rogers Nelson lives through that city, and that city's ready to stand up and fight. I don't think they realized that. And I think that they didn't realize how much the nation would pay attention.
40:06
Speaker 1
To all this.
40:07
Speaker 3
I agree with you. I don't think they realized that the public sentiment would be the way that it was or the way that it turned out or the attention that, as you said, that I got. I don't think that they, or maybe they did, but they certainly seem to, once they realized it, they sort of went quiet, like, oh shit.
40:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know? Yeah.
40:24
Speaker 3
So, and I don't think that they realized that for me to be prepared, like to have a PR person in place with a statement, an attorney ready, you know what I mean? And then you come out to the cameras and then say, I'm not, I'm not doing this shit, right? We're not doing this. And I'm not afraid. I don't think they were ready for that. I think they were used to dealing with people who were like, oh, my God, or did not have a platform.
40:46
Speaker 2
And that's, again, that's where you're– and I'm not trying to make too much of it. Your fame, your resources, your 30 years in the business are like, I'm not new. You can't just scoop me up and have me go, oh, no. You're like, I'm already lawyered up. I'm already– I don't have to figure out who do I call. I just call one person. They call everybody else. Yeah.
41:06
Speaker 1
Yeah.
41:09
Speaker 2
You didn't have to go, I don't know what to do. You already knew what to do. And the people around you knew what to do because they were already there to support you. So I will say this, Don, because this leads to this discussion. When you entered journalism back in the early 2000s, is that what I'm talking about?
41:27
Speaker 1
No.
41:28
Speaker 2
No, no, I guess that's when you got to CNN.
41:31
Speaker 3
I'm glad you think that I'm that young. I think I started in journalism in 91 or 92.
41:35
Speaker 1
Okay, but you got to CNN in 2004, right?
41:37
Speaker 2
I got to CNN in 2006. 2006, okay, that's what I'm saying. So, well, 91, even better, because you were a child. You were a child prodigy journalist.
41:48
Speaker 3
We'll go with that.
41:49
Speaker 1
Yeah, journalism was very different then. Oh, yeah.
41:53
Speaker 2
The role of the journalist was basically to act as if they were a vessel through which news came and to pretend as if they didn't have an opinion or... often journalists had opinions, they acted like they weren't opinions. But I'm saying, can you talk about what journalism was for young people then versus what journalism is now?
42:12
Speaker 3
Well, journalism was kind of, would you call it a one-way street?
42:18
Speaker 2
Also, yeah, there were three networks and PBS, basically.
42:24
Speaker 3
So CNN had been around for like 10 years. It was still fairly new, right?
42:27
Speaker 1
Yeah.
42:29
Speaker 2
It wasn't a 24-hour news cycle. I think that's important to note.
42:32
Speaker 3
Right. And it was a completely different thing. And then nobody paid attention to CNN in the beginning. The cable news were like, what is that? The broadcasts were the big boys. So anyway, long story short, it was completely different. And I say it was a one-way street because it was just the journalists telling you things. And it was hard to have any real feedback or anything like that. And it was only three major networks, PBS and then CNN. And then after that, Fox came along and said, oh, wait a minute, we have to do a conservative one. But still it was that.
43:03
Speaker 2
And CNN wasn't really thought of as liberal at the time in any way, right?
43:08
Speaker 3
No, but that's what conservatives did to it. They named it the Chicken Noodle Network or the Clinton News Network, right? Because they wanted to define their enemy or the source of their problem. And then all of a sudden, social media came about. And that really changed. everything because there were more places and we started getting more channels and all of that and more cable news, you know, came about, but, uh, and then, you know, it became more interactive and people had a say in it and they said, well, I don't want to, I don't like any of this. I don't like you necessarily telling me what I should be, what's important to me and what I should be paying attention to. I'm going to tell you. And not only am I going to tell you overtly through how I feel, but, but what I pay attention to.
43:53
Speaker 1
Yeah.
43:54
Speaker 3
And what the algorithm picks up on. And that's where, you know, and that's where we are now. That's why we're in this whole digital social era is because people were tired of people just telling them what they should think is important. And they also realize like, this is some bullshit. You know, it's all, as they say, it's all rigged. I wouldn't say it's all rigged, but it's heavily corporate influence.
44:16
Speaker 2
Well, and like you said, that there was a point at which the, and please speak on this, that the news department wasn't expected to make money That they were expected just to do the news, and then they got lumped in under the entertainment division. And when you have social media people saying, this is what I want to hear, and you have a news division that wants to make money, that creates a huge conflict of interest with the news.
44:42
Speaker 3
Yeah, and people engaging in the news. So I think young people are very savvy. Now, I think they're very savvy about social media and things that they are interested in. Um, I mean, look at what's happening now with, with Gaza and Israel, like people are becoming more aware and they're questioning things a lot more. However, what's problematic for me is media literacy.
45:03
Speaker 1
Yes.
45:03
Speaker 3
That people don't know what's real. And many of the folks who are out here delivering the news or what they think is a news have never gone through a rigorous sort of journalism, um, structure where there are standards and practices and attorneys looking at every single thing. And, um, so they don't know what's real and what's not. And then they just, you know, people put out rumors. And so that's the thing that concerns me the most. I wish that we could somehow teach media literacy that it was a required class in school, like we used to take civics, you know?
45:36
Speaker 2
I think you're right. Do you know, I know you talked to Francesca Ramsey recently. She's putting on a media literacy course on her YouTube. Did you see recently she put out a video addressing, directed to you?
45:48
Speaker 3
No, I heard about it. I heard that she put out a video directed to me about not appearing on the show or that I somehow was making excuses for Chris Brown.
46:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, it was about the Chris Brown thing. But you know what?
46:05
Speaker 3
I respect her, but you can find just as many people, if not more, saying, shut up about Chris Brown. And I did not make excuses for him. I said, it's complicated. And my question was, though, out of that is... when is it okay for people to make amends? And I'm not judging on when people should do that, but sometimes just by asking the question, people think that you are somehow making excuses for or letting people off the hook. I think it's a very legitimate question. And then you may say, never or not right now with Chris Brown because he doesn't appear to have any remorse for what he's done. Or you can say, he was 19 years old when this happened, he's still young or whatever, but that wasn't me. I made a very clear case that I'm not judging it, I'm just saying, this is what we should contemplate. How do you, and can you separate the artist from the art?
47:00
Speaker 2
Well, I think that's the, like, as I watch your piece, and I watch her piece, and I've watched lots of people talk about it, and I think the, there's, it's certainly, it's a very naughty, and I mean that, is it filled with knots issue.
47:12
Speaker 1
There's a lot of different pieces.
47:14
Speaker 2
There's the, jasmine crockett piece about like it is if you criticize a black woman on the internet patricia o'neill had a joke years ago when he was still alive about obama and he basically said he said white people black people might be okay to might start criticizing obama but we know that if we do we're going to be surrounded by racist suddenly white racist people who are like yeah andy's who are going to say who so therefore our criticisms will be surrounded by a bunch of racist bullshit so we are afraid to criticize obama in public because We don't want to be surrounded by white racists who are adding a bunch of racism to it. And I think it's that way with Jasmine Crockett.
47:49
Speaker 1
I think.
47:51
Speaker 2
Some people want to say, hey, Jasmine Crockett, we don't think that was a smart move politically for you to be on stage with Chris Brown, but I'm not going to indict your black womanhood at the same time. Whereas some people are like, ooh, it's an opportunity to indict her black womanhood because black women take the most shit on the internet.
48:08
Speaker 3
Come on, let me say this. You are 100% right. You cannot win with those issues. And look, I take criticism well. And when I think that it's warranted, I will respond to it. But most of the time I don't. Because if you look on the internet, and if you just Google Don Lemon, Chris Brown, oh my gosh, Don Lemon made excuses for Chris Brown. He let him off the hook. Oh my God, he was too, leave the black man alone, right? And especially Jasmine Crockett. There are people like, oh, Don Lemon is not Jasmine Crockett's friend anymore. And then others are like, oh my God, he's taking up for Jasmine Crockett. And it's like, we have to be able to, especially as black journalists, I've gone through this my entire career. We have to be given, we should be given all of the same rights and privileges that go along with any other journalist of any ethnicity. If there's a story about Chris Brown, I have to cover it. There's a story about Jasmine Crockett, I have to cover it. Whether she's a black woman or white woman or whatever. Jasmine Crockett is a public figure. I love Jasmine Crockett as a person. I think she's great. But she's a public figure. Also, she is a politician. And politicians are not beyond reproach. They should expect to be criticized. That's what they do. That's part of what they do. So Jasmine Crockett, no matter how much she thinks that, you know, it's fair or unfair, that's what journalists do. They analyze and they criticize the people who are in power and we hold those people to account. And there were many black women and just people in general who thought that her going on stage was a huge misstep. And then there are others who are like, Oh, leave her alone. It was great. I don't care. But I don't think you can win with those things. But I think we have to start realizing we have to be able to criticize people no matter what their ethnicity is, especially if we're black. Give me the same privileges that you give, I'm just saying, Anderson or anyone to be able to cover these issues without saying you're selling out the black people. That's a bunch of bullshit.
50:20
Speaker 1
I guess this is my question.
50:21
Speaker 2
Like, because specifically with the Chris Brown thing, like, and certainly I've talked a lot about separating the art from the artist in my work, so I understand what that means. And I understand that people struggle with that and understand that people come down on all sides. But the thing with Chris Brown, it seems to me, is that he's never, in my reckoning, I mean, first of all, his criminal record goes through, like, recently in England.
50:43
Speaker 3
He's still out there doing the most.
50:44
Speaker 2
Yeah, he's still, so it's not like we can go, I think sometimes people, and you didn't do this, but say, oh, he did that thing with Rihanna a long time ago, but there's a pretty consistent.
50:54
Speaker 1
Record of doing the most.
50:56
Speaker 3
I totally understand that, and I said that.
50:59
Speaker 2
And he's never really asked for forgiveness. He doesn't seem to be interested in atoning.
51:03
Speaker 1
He doesn't care. He doesn't care.
51:05
Speaker 3
I don't know if he cares about that. Maybe he doesn't, but.
51:07
Speaker 2
Because even this, he said, take the award back.
51:09
Speaker 1
I don't even want it. That's where I was going. Yeah.
51:12
Speaker 2
So I guess why defend him in any way? I guess that's my question because he doesn't seem like he wants you to.
51:17
Speaker 3
I'm not defending him. I'm trying to explain. There's a nuance here that because of what people are saying, all of the criticism, that people have certain, they have strong opinions about Chris Brown. There are people who think that he's not getting a fair shake. Whether those people are right or not, I'm not going to judge them. I don't happen to think that way. But then there are people who are like, hey, look, this guy is still doing it.
51:39
Speaker 1
And he is still doing it. So it's not a defense of Chris Brown.
51:42
Speaker 3
It's a nuanced story of me giving the story and telling people what's out there. And because all of that is real. And there are people who actually agree with what Jasmine Crockett did.
51:51
Speaker 1
Yeah, for sure.
51:52
Speaker 2
Yeah, there's people. I think this is what the thing that I've learned about myself. And I think this is also sort of the you have been in journalism– back when journalists were like, these are just what happened. I'm just delivering the information. And now you're like, you know, I'm talking about like in the nineties when journalists were really not opinionators.
52:12
Speaker 3
Yeah.
52:12
Speaker 1
And then the night you went on TV and said, Donald Trump is a racist.
52:18
Speaker 3
That wasn't an opinion. I gave facts.
52:20
Speaker 1
Yeah.
52:20
Speaker 2
But it's also not the way, probably not the way you were taught to do journalism back when you learned journalism back in the nineties is all. And I'm not disagreeing with you. I believe Donald Trump's a racist. I'm on the record for that. That was the night we went, oh, Don Lemon is a member of the resistance. I guess is what happened that night. And so I think people struggle with you sometimes, and you are who you are, to go sometimes it feels like he's a member of the resistance, and sometimes he's being the journalist from old school journalism, like this.
52:47
Speaker 1
Happened and this happened and this happened and this happened.
52:49
Speaker 3
And we're like– I don't feel that I was that way about this story, and I don't feel like I'm that way now about the Chris Brown story. First of all, the story wasn't really about Chris Brown. The story was about Jasmine Crockett. And so people are focusing on Chris Brown. And Chris Brown told you, he was quite honest. He goes, I did not ask for this. And so if we're doing a story that is completely focused on Chris Brown, then I may have a different opinion about, look, Chris Brown has done this, whatever. But the story was about Jasmine Crockett. And all of the things that we, every thumbnail that we put up, every story that we did, it was centered on, hey, did Jasmine Crockett make a misstep? Was this the right thing to do?
53:27
Speaker 1
Come on.
53:28
Speaker 3
Jasmine, Chris Brown, really? And then we gave Chris Brown's history. And then we went out and talked to people. And the people said, I think it's okay. He's getting it for the music. I don't care about the other bullshit. Almost to a person. There was maybe one or two people who were like, eh. They were like, it's... When you say people, you mean people who were... On the street. Man on the street people. Man on the street and in the comments section. I mean, most people were like, they were pro-Chris Brown. And so you can't... Should I not report that?
53:58
Speaker 2
No, no, I'm not telling you not to do that. I think people, here's what I see, and this is my.
54:02
Speaker 3
You wanted me to drag a black man, come on.
54:05
Speaker 1
I actually don't. I really don't. I think this is the most I've ever said Chris Brown's name in my life, let me be clear.
54:12
Speaker 3
Can I tell you that Chris Brown is not on my radar? I don't really know Chris Brown's music. I mean, I think he's a little young for me. I'm older. I'm a man of a certain age, so he's not really on my radar, again. So I don't know that much about him except for the Rihanna thing.
54:25
Speaker 1
Yeah.
54:26
Speaker 2
Well, I would say this, I'm talking about, forget all, I certainly think that obviously there's a reason to say, Hey, Jasmine Crockett, that might not have been the most politically astute thing to do being on stage with Chris Brown. I'm not talking about how you're dressed. I'm not talking about that. You even like Chris Brown's music. I'm talking about as a politician who I think has ideas of bigger, uh, bigger public office or, or bigger impact, whatever you're going to do. That's not the most politically astute thing to do, but I certainly, I don't, I didn't tweet about it.
54:52
Speaker 1
I just went, huh?
54:54
Speaker 2
Uh, I'm talking about my friend Don Lemon where I'm like, I see you sometimes. I'm like, there's a sense of like, Don likes the trouble. Don likes like wading into it and just sort of like being a little bit.
55:15
Speaker 1
Poking everybody's soft spot. Huh? Yeah.
55:18
Speaker 3
You think I'm a provocateur?
55:19
Speaker 1
I don't think you're. I don't think that's. I'm a shit stirrer.
55:21
Speaker 3
Is that what you're saying?
55:22
Speaker 1
I don't.
55:23
Speaker 2
I don't think you mind getting a little shit on you. I don't think you're doing it to stir the shit. But I don't think you feel sensitive about getting shit on you.
55:31
Speaker 3
No. That's why I've just– I will always, if I explain something or I'll tell you how I feel and then if I'm ready to move on, I'm ready to move on. There are a lot of things that people are in the comment section about. That's what I– this is– let me just tell you this. People are in the comment section about a lot of things that don't mean anything that have.
55:47
Speaker 1
Oh my God, how could you have this person on your show?
55:50
Speaker 3
She talks shit about blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I.
55:53
Speaker 1
Don't even know what that is.
55:54
Speaker 3
And I think we should get out of the comment section more often because we get bogged down in bullshit. But no, I'm not. I'm open. I think that's what journalists should be, open to. So sometimes I just sit there. Sometimes I do. I just sit there and listen because I think it's important for the people to be heard and for you to hear all sides. And then maybe I'll come back in a little bit and say how I feel about Maybe I won't. I don't always have to do that. I don't always have to be a one-trick pony. So I don't mind stepping in shit. I don't mind taking chances. I don't mind taking risks. I wrote something I thought was very tough about Macklemore and Israel and Ed Sheeran and people that have strong opinions. It's on my sub stack. And I said to myself, should I make this comparison? There was a certain thing I wanted to make a comparison about the, and it was the comparison to, to, uh, sort of overreact to everything, to put as much firepower behind everything as you can. And you think that that's going to, um, that that's going to fix the problem.
56:58
Speaker 1
Yeah.
56:58
Speaker 3
And so, and I said, it was very similar as, you know, what happened on October 7th, that it was, it is, of course you can defend yourself, but it has been an overreaction. It's just like, let's obliterate the entire thing. And, Let's not use precision weaponry when we're in a time that you can use precision weaponry, where you can have beepers that go off and target people and then blow them up, your enemy. So let's not pretend that you have to carpet bomb everybody in this particular moment. And the same thing with a similar, there was a similar inclination with when Macklemore donated a million dollars. Yeah. And I think before he could get it out, they're like, let's donate $ 2 million. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To overshadow that. It's like a thing that, oh, this will solve the problem if we just put more firepower in it.
57:47
Speaker 1
It's a battle of press releases.
57:50
Speaker 3
It is, but I thought it was a controversial thing to say as I was writing it. And I said, obviously, October 7th, there's no... The proportionality is just not there. I mean, that was awful. It's bigger than that. But the inclination to just you know, barrage and bombard people and is there, and it's the wrong inclination, I believe, for especially the time that we're in.
58:16
Speaker 2
I just want to be clear, what were you nervous, not nervous, but what did you think people might not.
58:21
Speaker 3
That people would discount everything that I wrote and say, well, how can you compare these two things because they're not the same? And I'm like, I know that, but the inclination is the same. Not that those two things are the same, it's the inclination and not the thing.
58:36
Speaker 1
And just to be clear, you were comparing....
58:38
Speaker 3
I was comparing Macklemore, them giving more money. The battle of how much money. Yeah, I'm giving two million, whatever, to that. So that's it. But the other things that I said also was, I don't want to get bogged down in this, but that it is, as a Christian, I'm still a bit concerned when people look at religious scripture as law. or as they call it, divine law. Because any Bible or any sort of religious doctrine or book is really about parables, allegory, and mythology. It's not necessarily all fact. And many of it's just about stories.
59:24
Speaker 1
And a lot of it was metaphor. It wasn't not meant to be.
59:27
Speaker 2
Yeah.
59:28
Speaker 3
Yeah, and a lot of it was interpreted by a whole lot of people coming down the line. And so we don't know what is what. And we end up, because of religion, starting a lot of wars and killing a lot of people. And so I think that people should realize that these things are not law. And I do think in this moment, a lot of people should do some self-reflection. All the things that we were taught as children or all the things we thought we knew back in the day turn out. not to be true and people evolve and things evolve. And I think people have evolved when it, uh, as it relates to this issue of, of Gaza and quite frankly, how much support we have for Israel. That's what, yeah, that's what's out in the zeitgeist now.
1:00:11
Speaker 2
Well, can I, where do you come down on calling it a genocide as a journalist?
1:00:17
Speaker 3
I think, I think we get bogged down into that in that I look, I think it's important, important to call a thing, a thing, but, um, you know, getting, getting stuck on that word stops real progress. And, um, and, and I think like, if you don't want people calling it that, then don't do things that appear to be that.
1:00:38
Speaker 2
If you don't want people calling it genocide, then don't do things that, that people feel like that's a genocide.
1:00:43
Speaker 1
That, yeah.
1:00:44
Speaker 3
And, um, you know, so it stops the argument, like people saying, well, we are able to do this because God said it, or the Bible said it. And then that, that ends the argument. You're like, well, what, what is your response? It doesn't give people a real response to it. There's no nuance. It doesn't, you know, and so I just think we get stuck on this, this genocide word and everyone's like, wait, if you're not going to call it a genocide, then I'm not going to discuss it. And then they're like, if you're going to call it a genocide, then I'm not going to discuss it. Let's just call it indiscriminate killings of many innocent people. And then, but you know, But at the end of the day, we have to call a thing a thing. But I don't want calling that thing a thing get in the way of discussing it in an honest and fulsome way.
1:01:37
Speaker 2
Once again, we end this podcast with you basically doing the thing I said.
1:01:43
Speaker 1
You don't mind getting some shit on you. You don't mind.
1:01:49
Speaker 2
I was just like, that's an answer that's guaranteed to make everybody mad.
1:01:54
Speaker 3
Both sides, right? However you feel about it. Yeah.
1:01:59
Speaker 2
I think I'm just a more sensitive person than you are, Don. Not that I'm saying I'm a better person. I'm just saying I'm more. I get very like, oh, I'm trying to make sure I say it the exact right way, that I express all of myself so people.
1:02:10
Speaker 1
Don't get confused.
1:02:12
Speaker 3
For me, talking about this is, I understand the hesitancy and I understand the complexity. But as someone who was.
1:02:29
Speaker 3
As part of a black Jewish alliance. I was like, don't tell me about, don't talk to me about antisemitism because I'm not an antisemite. And I believe that sometimes your friends have to hold up a mirror and say, you know, whether you believe this or not, whether this is true or not, this is a public sentiment about it. And maybe understanding or drawing some people in would help to fix that in some way. And that's it. Because you're used to enemies. doing certain things. And then so sometimes you forget about them and you stop criticizing them. And then when the people who love you or who support you start holding up a mirror or asking you like, hey, you should take a look at this, then you can't start to demonize them because those are the people who have supported you over time and who still do. And I think that that's where we are right now in this particular place.
1:03:24
Speaker 2
Well, Don, thank you for coming on today. I know you got, of course, you have a lot more to do. I'm sure you got to be outside later. I have two last questions.
1:03:32
Speaker 3
I am going outside.
1:03:33
Speaker 1
Yeah, go out. You're going outside.
1:03:34
Speaker 2
My penultimate question is, I always ask people if there's a cause or a nonprofit that they would like people to support or anything that is out there in the world that they want to.
1:03:42
Speaker 1
Put more light on.
1:03:43
Speaker 3
The Committee to Protect Journalists.
1:03:45
Speaker 1
Fair. Totally fair and understood. Yeah. That's it.
1:03:48
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah.
1:03:48
Speaker 1
In this time, I think that makes sense.
1:03:51
Speaker 2
And they are there with legal support for journalists who are being targeted and oppressed by the forces of anti-free speech.
1:03:59
Speaker 3
And I will say, when you said in what message, even if you don't support the companies or the organizations that own the journalism platforms or companies, you should still support the journalists.
1:04:14
Speaker 1
Got it.
1:04:15
Speaker 3
Right? And you should demand the journalists be better. I still see a lot of hedging in corporate media, a lot of false equivalents, a lot, and it just drives me bonkers. And in this particular time, I think independent journalists are extremely important. And is that self-serving? Absolutely. But it is the truth. So subscribe. Support independent journalists like me, like Jim Acosta, like Joy Reid, like Kamau Bell. I don't know if you consider yourself a journalist, but you are a journalist. I thought it for years. I accept it. And support us because we don't. We don't have to listen to anybody but ourselves and you, the people we work for. So support us. Become a member. Subscribe. Tune us in. Shout us out. Don't expect us to be perfect because we're not. And don't expect to agree with us. You should never expect to agree with any journalist or any politician because you don't agree with your own wife or your mama or anybody in your family all the time. So why do you expect to... So keep it real and keep it pushing.
1:05:14
Speaker 2
I think that is important. Just because you support a journalist, that doesn't mean you should support... You should agree with everything they say. I think that is important. It just means you support the fact that you like the way they do their work. It doesn't mean you're always going to land in the same place.
1:05:26
Speaker 1
Right.
1:05:26
Speaker 3
Yeah. Amen.
1:05:28
Speaker 2
My last question, the podcast is called Who's With Me. Don Lemon, are you with me?
1:05:33
Speaker 3
Yeah, I'm here, right? I'm here, Negro, aren't I?
1:05:37
Speaker 1
Yes, you are. And you've been with me a long time, so I appreciate you, brother. As have you. Thank you for doing this. Yeah, I appreciate it.
1:05:45
Speaker 3
Tully Quilley, I said hello. No, you know we made up, right?
1:05:50
Speaker 1
No, I know you did. He apologized. No, I know you did. And we had a great talk. No, I've seen it. That's why I brought it up, because I knew it wasn't still beef. I wasn't trying to bring up more beef, but yeah.
1:05:57
Speaker 3
I'm messing with you, because he almost kept us apart.
1:06:00
Speaker 1
Yeah.
1:06:05
Speaker 2
Thanks for listening to my conversation with Don Lemon. We had a great time. I'd never really talked to Don like that before, sort of that clearly, and just about our various approaches. So I was happy to talk to Don. I would imagine you might hear from Francesca Ramsey, which she can handle her own business. But Don wanted us to think about the Committee to Protect Journalists, cpj.org, the Committee to Protect Journalists. Free speech is important. Freedom of the press is important. So please check out the Committee to Protect Journalists. Now, maybe more than ever before in the history of the country, we need to support that organization. And again, if you can't give them money, you can actually just, you can just social media about it. Just take a screen grab of it or just send out the link just to, The more we sort of get these things out there, the more other people will know about them and maybe be able to support them.
1:06:50
Speaker 1
So, yeah.
1:06:51
Speaker 2
And Don Lemon, you can see him on YouTube. You can see him on Substack. You can see him on Instagram. He's out there everywhere. He's at Don Lemon, the Don Lemon Show. Just put it in your device, and you'll find Don Lemon. He does the Don Lemon Show twice a day, and then he does extra special appearances when the news demands it. And, again, you can preorder my new book with Adam Mansback, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. The links are in the show notes. And thanks to Ravagrin Productions, Pushkin Industries, and who knows Best Productions. Special thanks to Chris Dowd from Fishbone for the theme music. And again, do something good for yourself, for your community, and for the world.
The Host
