W. Kamau Bell
W. Kamau Bell is a Peabody Award winner, 4X Emmy Award winner, documentary filmmaker, stand-up comedian, Celebrity Jeopardy! champion, Official Ambassador of the band Fishbone, self-proclaimed #1 Bruce Lee Expert…
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W. Kamau Bell welcomes soccer legend Megan Rapinoe for a wide-ranging conversation reflecting on her storied career, personal growth, and ongoing activism. The discussion begins with Rapinoe explaining her characteristic approach to taking action first and navigating consequences later, noting that having “the right kind of people not in my corner and the right kind of people in my corner” validates her choices.
The topic turns to Rapinoe’s passionate defense of transgender women in sports, where she directly confronts the “lack of basic humanity and empathy” in current discourse. She dismantles fairness arguments by pointing out that “sports is not fair in any sort of way ever” and emphasizes that athletic competition cannot supersede human rights.
Rapinoe traces her activism roots to her mother’s early lessons about using one’s platform responsibly, despite growing up in conservative Redding, California—a “predominantly white, really conservative” environment where her parents modeled egalitarian values.
The interview explores her public breakup with Sue Bird, which the couple chose to announce gracefully to provide “a good ending” rarely seen with celebrity couples.
She describes being good at sports as “a spiritual experience” involving profound “alignment of purpose”, while acknowledging the difficult transition into retirement, including accepting that “there isn’t another feeling” that can replicate championship performance.
Rapinoe expresses dismay at continued homophobia in men’s sports and the “level of silence and cowardice” among powerful figures who could speak out without sacrifice. She closes by urging political engagement: “Politics is going to interact with you whether you interact with it or not”, before confirming that she is, in fact, with Kamau.
Who’s With Me is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Chris Dowd. Distributed by Pushkin Industries.
Hey, everybody. It's me, Debbie. Welcome to episode 23 of my podcast. Who's with me based on my sub stack of the same name. My name is Debbie and I am your host today. Subscribe to my sub stack. If you really want to keep in touch with me and avoid the algorithm. Uh, this episode is with, uh, the incredible, the, uh, game changing, literally Megan Rapinoe, uh, women's soccer player, ex women's soccer player. I mean, she's always gonna be a soccer player, but she has retired from her career as competitive soccer player. I got to watch her new doc out. It's called Rapinoe. It's not out yet, but it is making the festival circuit, and it will be out somewhere soon where you'll be able to see it, I'm sure. So we talked about her doc, which you'll be able to see someday. And also, a little thing you should know, I taped this episode the same exact day that I taped the episode with Colin Kaepernick that aired last week. So the shirt is the same if you're watching this on YouTube. I'm wearing my Living Color Juneteenth. Shirt in both. I just put on a jacket over the Colin Kaepernick of it to dress it up for the evening because I'm a man and I have male privilege and I can dress things up by just putting on a casual jacket. But anyway, what else is going on? My book, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. How do I make sure that you can see this? Okay, it looks like you can see that. It's the actual book. It's an actual copy of the book. Look at the back. It's my family. Look, it's me and my mom and my wife over there and my three daughters. who are all featured in the book, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. I've been talking about this for a while. We finally have it. It comes out October 27th. You can order it from your favorite independent bookstore. I would encourage you to order it from bookshop.org if you want to get it online because that actually supports independent bookstores. You can actually choose which independent bookstore you want to support. Yeah, Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. It's here. Look, I'll just open it up to a random page to show you how it looks. Let's see. Look at that. It's my kids and our dog. the illustrator Brianna Chambers was like, do you have a dog? I'm like, we do have a dog. And there you go. So it's my kids about to fight. Two of my kids fighting and the older one interrupting. It doesn't always go that way. But anyway, it's Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. I got it. Please pre-order it. The pre-orders help us a lot. Please get it from an independent bookstore to support your local community. Again, this is my first children's book. And just to give you an idea, it's just about a fun game of Rock, Paper, Scissors that gets turned into Rock, Paper, Scissors, Cheese. That idea came from Adam Mansbach, who is my co-author of this book, because that's how he plays in his family. We sort of combined our families, which we've been around each other for years. And again, October 27th, pre-order now. Yay, I got a physical copy of the book. I've been giving it away to people. I should probably sell them, though. So please buy one. Let me put this down here. So, yes. I had a cool thing happen this week. Actually, I ran into Megan Rapinoe there. I got invited to see the Valkyries, the Golden State Valkyries' first finals game in their history, in their brief history. It's their second year of existence. And they invited me and my wife to go see the first finals game. We went to the Chase Center in San Francisco. I've been to the Chase Center several times. I'm pretty lucky because of Warriors events and also for like, I've done private events at the Chase Center. I actually work Did a thing for the Warriors one time where I explained the in-season tournament because they needed a comedian because it was complicated. So, yes, I got to go to a Valkyries game last year, but this was like the finals game, one of the finals. I've been to an NBA finals game before with the Warriors. It was the one where they lost because Draymond Green had kicked one of the Cavaliers in the nuts in the previous game. It was LeBron, I think it was LeBron, but he kicked the Cavaliers player in the nuts and he got suspended, and that's the year that they It's like 10 years ago, actually. That's the year I think they lost because, anyway, we don't talk about that. I went to the Valkyries game. That's what I'm talking about. I went to the Valkyries game. And so it's the same arena as the Warriors, but I have to say it feels very different to go to a Valkyries game. And I talked to a lot of people that have been to both Warriors games and Valkyries games, and it feels very different. And a lot of it, I mean, maybe all of it is, first of all, it's the WNBA, so that's a different league. Let's be clear about that. And, you know, it has a different vibe because there is still a feeling of it being like, right now it is super passionate WNBA fans. And now with all the acclaim they're getting, there's more people coming, but you still have a core of just super passionate WNBA fans. And then there's just the thing about it where the, I don't know if it's 90% women who go to Valkyrie's games, but it definitely feels like the kind of supportive and nurturing environment that I associate with women versus the kind of, You suck energy. I associate with sports that involve men as people who watch it. You know, people, when we go to the, when we went to the Valkyries game, a lot of people were like, yeah, a lot less quarter zips here. Quarter zips being the dress of Silicon Valley. Yeah. So it was a lot less sort of like a, you know, a lot, a lot less bros, a lot less prop bets. It feels like. A lot less being mad if you lost. It felt really supportive. It felt like the kind of people I'd want cheering me in my daily life. Like, you can do it. Come on. They definitely are hardcore sports fans, but it's how they express it is different. And because I am who I am and me and my wife are who we are, I decided I should probably wear a shirt that is appropriate to the moment of a WNBA game. So I reached out to my friend Kate Schatz. Kate reached out to some people, and we got two shirts from the Transgender Law Center. That basically support trans kids playing sports. You can see me and Michael Threatts wearing my trans people belong in sports shirt as Michael Threatts wears his Nolan Wells shirt. And as you know, that picture is the first time me and Michael Threatts met. We met for the first time at the Vox game. So really the Vox game is just the home of all that is good in the universe. I don't know if every WNBA franchise is this, but it feels so good. I was standing at halftime with my wife talking to somebody. and all of a sudden I felt somebody tap me in the back, and I turned around, and it was Michael Threats, the People's Librarian, and he just was like, and we hugged each other. We had interacted online a couple times, but we'd never met before, and he lives in the Bay Area too, but I got three kids, and he's the People's Librarian, so he's quite busy, so we'd never met in real life before, and he was everything I wanted him to be, and I instantly, because he talks a lot online about his mental health challenges, and he's got very severe ones, and he's been very open about it, and I just said, hey, man, I feel like I'm here to protect you. I feel like I'm here to be your security guard. And he was just so nice. He's going to be a guest on an upcoming podcast. And it just, you know, it's weird. He went from zero to fame and that's gotta be hard to go through in a very quick period of time. Also because of social media. And also when he talks about his, his, uh, mental health struggles, people get, get on him, uh, and, you know, and aren't very kind about it. And he also, much like Miss Rachel doesn't mind standing up for all children everywhere. Cause he is the people's librarian. He talks about library kids, but he wants every kid to be able to enjoy their lives and have access to libraries and books and everything they need. So he's talking about library kids in America, library kids all around the world. He doesn't mind saying, That he wants library kids in Palestine to get what they need. He doesn't mind. And I'm sure he wants library Republicans to get what they need, too. You know what I mean? It's just like him and Miss Rachel are just equal opportunity lovers of helping children. So, yeah, so it was great to meet him, and he was so nice. And also, Megan Rapinoe was there. I ran into Megan Rapinoe. So then we took this picture. Look at this. It's the Avengers of goodness in the world, me, Michael Threats, and Megan Rapinoe. And they had never met before, so I got to introduce Megan Rapinoe to Michael Threats. So, yeah, it's a weird life this life is. But I just really want to focus on how enjoyable and beautiful the WNBA game was. The Valks won. I know to call them the Valks now because everybody said go Valks. So the Valks won game one. It was a very tight game. Defense is what won the day. Uh, Vox were not hitting their threes. I don't know enough to know if that's a thing that happens all the time, but they were not hitting their threes, but defense and free throw shooting won the game. Uh, Gabby Williams was amazing. Uh, yeah, it was, it was great. I don't, I don't know enough to know all the players names, but I do know Gabby Williams and the, the, uh, Vox gave me a Jersey with my name on it. And it was my first time ever in arena getting on the Jumbotron when they did the thing where they showed, look at all the famous celebrities and influential people were there. Uh, And they told me they were going to do it. And I was so nervous. And I sat there. And they put me on the Jumbotron. And I tried to record myself on the Jumbotron while I was on the Jumbotron. But the video was horrible because I was shaking and looking around. But it was my first time on the Jumbotron. And I felt so honored. Because also in that same Jumbotron montage was Too Short. The mayor of Bay Area Rap, Too Short, was also there. I was going like, yeah, I'm so happy to be on the Jumbotron. Too Short was not doing that. He was very cool and refined and sort of looked like he acted like he'd been there before where I had never been on the Jumbotron before. And I've been to Warriors games. I'm not going to say it, but I've never been on the Jumbotron. I'm not trying to say I need to be on the Jumbotron, but I was happy to be on the Jumbotron. And it felt great to be wearing my trans kids play sports on the Jumbotron. And it's interesting because I was sort of nervous to wear that shirt. Going out and– I mean, I've worn things that say, like, I have an ACLU shirt that supports trans as trans people belong. But there's something about going to a game because of all the bullshit and nonsense that has been around the WNBA with trans women, even though, let's be clear, there are no trans women playing in the WNBA, and there's no trans women who are even trying to get into the WNBA. So it is a fake issue. Stephen A. Smith and Enos Cantor. And Royce White. I'm going to call you all A. Smith. Stephen A. Smith, Royce A. Smith, Enos A. Smith. Anytime anybody is getting into areas they don't have the intellectual capacity and they're doing it for the grift, their last name is now A. Smith because that's what it is. Stephen A. Smith is doing. So, you know, but I felt nervous wearing this into the arena because, you know, it's just, there's a lot of, but as always, when I start to feel nervous about doing something that I know is the right thing to do, something will come to me and be like, welcome out to remind me of how lucky I am. Welcome out. You're nervous about going into the arena about, Wearing a shirt that supports trans people playing sports. Imagine what a trans person feels like walking around the world being trans. Do you think what you're going through is worse than that, Jamal? I'm laughing because no, it's not. So I wore the shirt. My wife wore the shirt. And we got some compliments on it and got a couple stares. But who knows what people are staring at. But I also took a ton of pictures with people. Hey, and people, when you take pictures with me, tag them and put them on social media so I know they're real. But yeah, so. Uh, a lot of, a lot of people came up to me of all races and all, uh, all, uh, ages and said, thank you for wearing that shirt. Some would sort of lean in conspiratorially. Some people said, uh, you know, some people I think who maybe, you know, couldn't let their bosses know, but we're like, thank you for wearing that shirt. And so it felt like the right thing. The Valks game was amazing. I hope to go again. I hope to take my daughters. I just have too many daughters. So they were like, that's a five people. We'll figure that out maybe next season. But yeah, I mean, it was an honor to be there. So happy to meet Michael treats. So happy to hang out with Megan Rapinoe. Uh, and yeah, let's get to the episode. It's with Megan Rapinoe. So Megan Rapinoe is a two time, uh, winner of the women's world's cup. Uh, she won. They are the USA beat team Canada in 2015. They beat France in 2019. They were runner up in 2011 in Germany. Uh, but they won two worlds. She's been a part of two world cup winning teams. Uh, She has got a gold medal for the soccer team for women's soccer in the Olympics in 2012 and looks like a bronze in 2020 in Tokyo. That was a rough year, though. COVID messed things up. She's won a ton of things. She's regarded one of the great women's soccer players of all time. She's also very openly political and sort of in her career sort of came to a political understanding and then understood how hard it was to come to that understanding. But she very most famously, she knelt after Colin Kaepernick knelt. So it made sense I talked to them both on the same day she knelt. to sort of so solidary with him and what his cause about police brutality. And then she learned how that was not a popular thing, even on her team. So yeah, we talk about that. We also talk about some things I really wanted to talk about with an athlete. Like one, what's it like to be great at sports? And two, how do us parents coach our kids when we feel like their team is not as good as we wanted them to be? So it was a very good conversation. Both Colin and Megan, I only sort of know through, us all being sort of in the famous's world, but I'm starting to really become, uh, more friendly with Megan. And, uh, cause you know, so I just, it's been really great to have her around the last few weeks. I've just been around her a lot recently and it's been great. So, uh, shout out to Megan Rapinoe, uh, shout out to, uh, Jess who helped make this happen. And, uh, yeah. So listen to the episode, episode 23, 23, it's the Michael Jordan episode. Did I say that already? 23, Michael Jordan's number. So it makes sense that we got all these athletes up in here and talking about basketball. Hey, thanks for watching an episode of Who's With Me. If you're on YouTube, please like and subscribe, share, hit that hype button. I hear it makes all the difference. Please like, subscribe, share, hit the hype button. Thank you. Megan Rapinoe. Come now. Hi. So first of all, thank you for doing this. We just did this a couple weeks ago on your podcast. It seems like we've already had conversations recently, but it's flipped now. So I got totally different questions than what.
13:46
Speaker 2
You asked me. I sent him the doc yesterday.
13:49
Speaker 1
I was going to ask you about the Bill Cosby documentary. I can't do that. thank you for doing this. Uh, I start every podcast as you may know, cause.
13:58
Speaker 2
Apparently I'm an active listener.
14:01
Speaker 3
Okay.
14:02
Speaker 1
It'd be weird if I didn't give you your flowers. So let me give you your flowers. Um, and I just saw your documentary Rapinoe. That's a great name. Yeah. It sounds like a verb. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. Um, so I'm a little bit messed up about your doc, but we're going to get through this right now. Cause it's really good. And it's really like not the typical sports doc. Um, So give your flowers for just, as the doc shows, showing up and trying to be on the right side of issues, even when you get to the right side and you're like, oops, this is more than I thought.
14:33
Speaker 2
It's a lot over here.
14:34
Speaker 1
Oh, hello.
14:37
Speaker 3
Yeah.
14:37
Speaker 1
Can you talk about that? Oh, man.
14:40
Speaker 3
You know, I thank you for saying that, first of all. And thank you for having me. I love your pod and I love you. And this is so much fun. I was saying to you before we got started that I'm so happy to be interviewed because I'm doing an interview pod now and all I have to do is interview other people and I'm just like dying.
14:55
Speaker 2
To talk about myself. So this is great.
14:56
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's all you do.
14:57
Speaker 2
I'm back to my natural state.
14:59
Speaker 3
I feel like I have this thing where I'm only thinking one or two steps ahead and it's not like, I'm just not good at thinking about everything that could possibly happen and like my, you know, it's probably, I guess my anxiousness doesn't show up.
15:19
Speaker 1
Like that.
15:19
Speaker 3
So normally what happens is I'm like, okay, I want to do this and I feel convicted about this. And then I get to the other side of it and I'm like, well, I didn't think about that. But then it kind of relieves a lot of pressure because I'm just like, well, here we are. So we're just going to navigate it. And, you know, I always take cue from the people who.
15:37
Speaker 2
Are upset at me.
15:39
Speaker 3
You know, I feel like I got the right kind of people not in my corner and the right kind of people in my corner.
15:45
Speaker 2
So it's always like, yeah. Yeah. That feels right that that person's upset at me.
15:49
Speaker 1
Seeing the people upset at you who you're like, yeah, you should be upset at me makes me feel like even though I'm in over my head, I'm in the right place to be in over my head. Yeah, yeah.
15:56
Speaker 2
I feel like I'm in over my head, and yet, I don't know. We talked about my public. Like, Megyn Kelly is just, like, going off. I'm like, oh, looks like I'm not in over my head. Looks like I'm standing upright. This is good.
16:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I want to give you credit for there's a lot of talk about how damaging trans women are to sports of all levels.
16:19
Speaker 2
Yeah.
16:19
Speaker 1
And you, I think, should be a voice of authority as one of the highest level women athletes in the history of athletics. And so I give you credit for not being afraid to stand with trans people of all types, but also trans women in sports.
16:35
Speaker 2
God, imagine what my career could have been if.
16:38
Speaker 2
Oh, no.
16:39
Speaker 1
Right. Okay.
16:40
Speaker 2
Doesn't exist.
16:41
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:41
Speaker 2
No, I am.
16:44
Speaker 3
Appalled I think it's just like the lack of basic humanity and empathy that people are showing and just the amount of fear and hate that you know I think just like the silence from athletes is a lot like I don't want to put it all at the athlete's feet and I hesitate to do that with sort of a myriad of issues and also I'm like you got a lot of people speaking for y'all right now and you guys aren't saying anything and just like For the most part, it's about, you know, kids like playing youth sports and being able to be who they are and to feel okay in their body. And I learned from a very young age from my mom. I have a twin sister and we were, you know, good at sports and athletic and popular in school. And I think her upbringing, she's one of like seven or eight kids and they were really poor and just not that like cool kids. And I think she was bullied a little bit for that. And just very early on, she was like, you ain't shit because you're cool and because you're popular. And actually, like, you have a responsibility and the opportunity, I think, to, like, really change someone's lives or make a kid feel good or, you know, use your sort of, like, station in life to do something good. So I feel like from very early on, it was like, That is the expectation. And also, like, don't think you're cool just because you're cool.
18:08
Speaker 2
You're not.
18:09
Speaker 1
So she was, like, not cool growing up and, like, suddenly had a cool kid. And we talked about it. I'm going through that, too. I have a cool kid. And I'm like, I don't know. But you say, use your powers for good. Yeah.
18:17
Speaker 2
She was like, none of this shit. Like, this isn't going to work.
18:21
Speaker 1
I have a very direct question based around this whole trans thing. Because I feel like this is the thing that isn't asked, especially of someone like you who competed at the highest level. why aren't you afraid of trans women in sports? Like, because that's the big fear is that, that people want to pretend like it's like suddenly, and I hate, you know, it's LeBron James with a wig on, blah, blah, blah.
18:41
Speaker 2
Yeah.
18:41
Speaker 3
I mean, that example just isn't happening. And I don't think that is ever going to happen. I think there's a lot that trans people have to go through. If you're a trans person is forced to even play. It's like, you couldn't just say one day I'm a woman and go play.
18:56
Speaker 2
That's not how it works.
18:58
Speaker 3
And also, I think for me, one of the biggest things is like, God forbid somebody be good at sports and have some sort of advantage, which, by the way, sports is not fair in any sort of way ever, right?
19:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, I say that. It's like, it's not meant to be fair.
19:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, I'm like, what's fair?
19:19
Speaker 1
I always point to Victor Wimbinyama. Is that fair? What does that mean, even? So it's already....
19:26
Speaker 2
Not fair.
19:27
Speaker 3
And also just like, it isn't the most important thing in the world over someone's human rights or getting to play or being cool to people.
19:37
Speaker 2
So I'm just like, I don't know.
19:39
Speaker 3
I've won everything at every level basically and played, you know, in sort of every competition. And like, I've just kind of like, I'm the one who can speak to it like I'm okay if like God forbid a trans person plays sports and they're halfway decent at it you know like it's fine also just the needle thread to even be a professional athlete and to like be a trans person. It's just, I think most people just want to participate and play. And I can't wait to see an elite, elite trans person play sports.
20:11
Speaker 2
That'd be great.
20:12
Speaker 1
And, and we, you know, we, we've, I've, I don't know why. I think I know why I didn't say Ennis Cantor or Royce White because I don't like saying those words out loud. Yeah, just grifters, man. But just grifters, yeah.
20:21
Speaker 2
Wow, sad, sad.
20:23
Speaker 3
I'm like, y'all have nothing better to do? Like, wow, just grifting.
20:30
Speaker 2
It's kind of embarrassing.
20:32
Speaker 1
Well, I think both of them had that thing where they were like, you know... not like it is kentish from turkey but i would say that to maga he's brown on the census he might be able to check white but by magas that name and that never going away tan makes him brown yeah and then you have voice white i think they both have that like black and brown sort of like where they sort of both went maga and maga like loves to welcome those people in but then those people get welcomed in and very quickly discarded because they don't they don't really want those people there and so they're trying to figure out how do I add to my MAGA grift? And I think it's so sad they both figured out the same grift at the same time. Yeah. Because it makes it more obvious that it's a grift because you both independently went the I'm trans grift. Yeah.
21:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, and I'm like, and they still hate you.
21:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, they still hate you. Yeah, they'll pretend. They'll pretend. But as soon as you walk out the studio, they're talking mad shit about you. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I want to talk about, and we don't have to go too into this, but I just admire, and you don't have to say anything if you don't want to, just... public couples splitting up and having to then continue to be outside and live your life. I'm just in like so much grace and awe and empathy around that. And, you know, cause you two certainly were a public couple locked arm in arm. And then very recently we're like, we're done. We're not doing that anymore. Yeah.
21:54
Speaker 3
It was such a, um, uh, It's such an interesting thing, just being a public person, period.
22:02
Speaker 2
You know that.
22:03
Speaker 3
It's kind of a bizarre experience. And then obviously pulling our relationship into that. Normally, no, I wouldn't feel the need to do a press release about a partner that I'm breaking up with. But also we made the choice to put our relationship public.
22:21
Speaker 2
And I think we both felt.
22:22
Speaker 3
Like it's sort of our responsibility or it would just be bad. too weird to be honest to just you know stop doing our podcasts and and stop so we kind of like I think being gay too and being role models for a lot of people I think especially younger people just felt like it was an opportunity also to just show a good ending I don't think we do that that often and I think especially with celebrity couples or couples that are known or public couples like it's always just like bitter in the end and we were just kind of like hey it's okay like Sue's doing her thing and she's doing great.
22:58
Speaker 2
And she has like a whole life that she's doing. And I have my thing.
23:01
Speaker 3
And, you know, we had a lot of love and we were together for a long time and it's okay that this ended. And we did that in a way that we felt good about. And then like, you didn't hear.
23:10
Speaker 2
Anything else about it because there was nothing else to say about it.
23:13
Speaker 1
Well, also I want to say, you know why often celebrity couples breakups are messy, right?
23:17
Speaker 3
Yeah.
23:18
Speaker 1
Straight people.
23:19
Speaker 2
Straight people.
23:19
Speaker 1
I'm not saying gay people can't be messy, but if it comes to really some real mess and Something's up. Heterosexuality is a mess.
23:27
Speaker 3
And then it's hard not to like, you know, you are a couple and then you're public. And then I just call it feed the beast. But it's like, then you start making decisions based on the beast, which is media and social media, all that. When it's like, you don't know everybody, everything. Like, you know, you put some of it out there. We felt like the old people saying it and a sort of like closure. And then everything else is like, not your fucking business.
23:52
Speaker 1
Well, it's also, I mean, I understand that because your audience, you become, You know, and talk to Cameron Esposito about this a little bit. The idea that, like, she was like, I'm like a... I don't know what her exact fraction was, but to a certain demographic of people, I'm Taylor Swift. She's like, to a certain demographic of people, that's how famous I am. And your audience or fans or stans or followers or supporters are... are understandably parasocial, even though that's a word we don't use in a positive way, but just sort of feel like this person is helping me live my life better because that person's out there and these two people are out there and now they're split up.
24:33
Speaker 3
I feel there's a little bit of a part of me, I feel like it's ever evolving, of being in the public eyes. There's a lot of benefit that comes from it also. There's a lot of privilege, a lot of benefit, there's money, there's, you know, sometimes you just walk in and they're like, we do have a table. And I'm like, that's What I was hoping was going to happen because I couldn't get a reservation.
24:52
Speaker 1
I didn't call. Yeah.
24:53
Speaker 2
So there's a lot of benefit.
24:54
Speaker 3
And I think there is a balance and a responsibility. Like, no, I didn't choose to be famous. People don't really choose to be famous, but like you are. And insofar as you're going to participate in the benefit, there's some part of it that you got to, balance even just like karmically it's like you got to do your part to reflect the world that you want to see back i think in a lot of ways and i think it's easy for celebrity culture to just kind of like take the good and then when it gets a little weird they're like well don't don't look at me now and i'm like well i guess you just you're looking so i'm.
25:32
Speaker 1
Here i'm here I could talk a little bit about the fact that when you started playing soccer, there wasn't really the idea that you could be a famous women's soccer player in the way that you are. Yeah.
25:41
Speaker 2
Not, not like it is now.
25:43
Speaker 3
Certainly not. We sort of had the breakthrough, like Mia Hamm, um, was kind of like, uh, cultural fascination figure had these couple of moments i would say like abby had a huge few moments maybe hope was kind of like one of the ones that people knew but it it wasn't it was like you had to do like it was like a flash and then you know everybody kind of forgot what it is and that i was kind of lucky enough i love my experience my career Because it all happened like in the span of my career.
26:15
Speaker 2
So like the beginning of my career was so dramatically different than the end of it.
26:19
Speaker 3
And it was like fascinating to see the change and be a part of the change happening in real time.
26:22
Speaker 1
It was nuts. Let's talk about your documentary, Rapinoe. Yeah. First of all, as I said, it fucked me up. In a good way? I watched it. Yeah, no, a great way. In a great way. In a like, I just didn't know. So the thing that's so weird about celebrity is that you sort of think you know a person and we've talked before. I, there were so many things like, I didn't know about that. I didn't know about that. I didn't know about that. So I appreciate that and the vulnerability, but also just the artistry of the filmmaker, Rebecca Hunt to like, to like, I mean, really decides like, this is not your typical sports doc in any, I mean, it has highlights and fun things that you did in your career, but it is very intimate. And, you know, it's funny, you talk about therapy in the film and some of that looks like you were, there's one where she asked you a question and you're like, Like, I was like, that is a therapy side. Yeah. Yeah.
27:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. It was, it's funny.
27:09
Speaker 3
Like, I just actually watched the whole thing for the first time at the premiere at TIFF. And it was so interesting to see where I was then, like, just as a person, but definitely in, like, the journey of going to therapy to, like, where I am now, I probably wouldn't like use the, I probably wouldn't use the words as much. They would probably just show up a little bit more, but right away with Rebecca and I, and shout out Rebecca, she's Rebecca Hunt, the director.
27:38
Speaker 2
She was amazing.
27:40
Speaker 3
And exactly the kind of filmmaker that I First of all, she's a Black woman. She's a Latina woman. It's just like I wanted a different perspective.
27:51
Speaker 2
I'm white. My family's white.
27:53
Speaker 3
A lot of people in my orbit are. I feel like I'm like, and I play sports. I'm like, I got that part of it on lock. I wanted more of like an artistic perspective. view of it and she just like knew exactly where to to take the story and she just like did this whole other perspective I definitely wanted like a commentary on what happened in my life like I don't want to be the one commentating it you're too close and I think we've all seen those athlete docs that are that are just you know self-serving i think it ends up being like they're entertaining like i love them like.
28:29
Speaker 1
And we're thinking about the same doc it's just but it's like it is self-serving doesn't mean for that person it's not entertaining yeah but it just means that you're not going to do the same thing yeah.
28:37
Speaker 3
I just didn't i didn't want to do that but yeah like definitely seeing the sort of like journey of all of it i was like oh this is intense well also.
28:45
Speaker 1
And i don't know how deep you want to get into this now because i don't know how deep i can get into this now just because like i said So I just happen to be a person who today is talking to you, one of the most famous and iconic athletes in the history of planet Earth. And later I'm talking to a man named Colin Kaepernick.
29:01
Speaker 2
I know.
29:02
Speaker 1
One of those famous and iconic athletes in the history of planet Earth.
29:04
Speaker 3
We've had a real, like, is kismet the right word, situation around. Because when I interviewed you, I asked you who we should have next.
29:11
Speaker 1
Yeah.
29:12
Speaker 2
And you said Colin out of the blue. It really was not staged for everyone.
29:15
Speaker 1
Oh, that's funny.
29:15
Speaker 2
And then the next week we were doing Colin.
29:17
Speaker 1
Yeah.
29:18
Speaker 2
And then I'm coming back here and doing you.
29:20
Speaker 3
And then I'm in Oakland to do this and also to go to Colin's event.
29:25
Speaker 2
I know. It's just, yeah.
29:27
Speaker 1
But the moment that the story in the movie gets to the part of the two of you sort of like first intersecting just sort of because you took a knee after he took a knee. And then when he's in the film. And first of all, the thing that's been so amazing. right now about Colin is he's outside doing every public thing, every podcast and everything, but he's not normally like that. And so when him and his big afro show up in the film, his weight of showing up, because he doesn't show up all the time, just felt really powerful that he showed up for you in the way that you had showed up for him.
29:58
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think probably that my experience of Colin and Colin's experience of me is different than what most people say that they experience of us. I think we have, like, such a deep respect and love and, like, care for each other. I think we, you know, went through, in the way that I can experience it and the way that he can experience it, the same-ish kind of thing. And I think we both like continued to show up for each other. And definitely for me, like I continued to show up and say his name and to like constantly bring the conversation back to what he ultimately was saying. And so I know I was a little like, I mean, of course I won't call him.
30:41
Speaker 2
Except for my doc. He's just, you know, iconic.
30:44
Speaker 1
As long as he makes you write down, well, we'll get... Yeah. We'll call him. Yeah, hopefully. But he doesn't... He's not... I think one of his most powerful things is that he does not show up all the time. So when he shows up, it feels like... Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
30:54
Speaker 2
It was a really cool experience. I think for everybody that was working on the film.
30:58
Speaker 3
For Rebecca also to be, you know, a young black filmmaker, being able to interview him in this type of film, it was really cool.
31:07
Speaker 2
Because you're right. He doesn't just.
31:09
Speaker 3
I think of Colin, because I hear this all the time. It's like, well, he doesn't do anything or he doesn't show.
31:15
Speaker 1
I'm going to be clear. I'm not saying that.
31:16
Speaker 2
No, no, no. I don't think you're saying that either.
31:18
Speaker 3
I think Colin doesn't show up anywhere where he doesn't respect you and where he doesn't have something else to add and where he doesn't feel like he's going to have to answer the same question all of the time. And so I think he's like, He knows, obviously, that we have a deep respect. And so him even just like humoring us and sitting for the doc was amazing. And I think to have his perspective of all that was happening was really, really interesting and special.
31:52
Speaker 1
These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health. And we've all gone down an internet rabbit hole exploring the latest health trends, Your social media feed is packed with wellness advice telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? And what's just wrong? That's exactly what Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy-nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel, and YouTube, talks to health influencers, real people, and most importantly, doctors. in order to separate fact from fiction. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Listen to Health vs. Hype on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. As you said, there's a similarity in that you both sort of like, like he did his public statement about, uh, that, you know, he first, he knelt and then he gave his public statement about, I refuse to stand for a flag and all those things. And I just finished his book cause I'm, cause I'm talking to him tonight. And he talks about how he was, he knew there'd be a ripple effect, but he had no idea it would be that big. And it sounds like you were in the same position with like, oh, well, and I'm, I'm, these are my words. Every athlete's going to take a knee to support Colin now. And I'll just be, I'll just be one of the many and I'll get down here and then tomorrow and I'll turn on the news. I'll just be another in the, in the, in the list of people who did it. All the, all the athletes all over America did. I'll just be another one who did it. And, and that's not exactly what happened.
33:34
Speaker 2
No, no, I definitely thought.
33:37
Speaker 3
I don't think I was thinking like, oh, I'm going to do it because of that. But it certainly wasn't like, I was not thinking like, oh, I'm going to do this thing and it's going to be so crazy. Because I think at that point it was like already, Colin was already everywhere. But I also think it would just gone through like from, you know, Trayvon Martin to Ferguson, Mike Brown to Alton Sterling. It was just like, that was like through like Philando Castile.
34:04
Speaker 2
The WNBA had already started to, protests, police brutality. Like it was just so out there. And I just was like, okay.
34:13
Speaker 3
I mean, you know, probably a little bit of naivete on my part for sure. I'm just like, this is so obvious. And now Colin is giving a really amazing, like very clear mechanism to do this. And I think athletes could really resonate with that. Obviously there's a ton of black athletes. I think female athletes could resonate with that. I know like as a female athlete, Um, and as a gay athlete and then just a gay person, I'm just like, oh yeah, I, I, yeah, I can connect, you know, these two dots that are, that are happening and we can like show up for each other. And like, when we all do that, we're way more powerful than any ownership group or class or, well, it didn't happen.
34:56
Speaker 1
It didn't happen.
34:56
Speaker 2
It didn't happen quite like that.
34:57
Speaker 1
Well, and I also think that there's a lot to be said, and I really appreciate, and Sue talks about this in the doc that like, because she had come up in a basketball in America, she was already in the middle of conversations with black people about the issues and, and, and culture and those things. So that she had a certain like knowledge that not a white person who comes up in soccer, which is white in this country, I'll be clear, not in the world, but in this country is a overwhelmingly white sport that you sort of like, as you sit down, all you can look around as a, as a viewer is like, she's surrounded by white people in a way that like, you know, if Sue takes a knee in the, if she was to take a knee in the WNBA, there'd be all these black athletes with her.
35:35
Speaker 2
Yeah.
35:35
Speaker 3
Yeah, her experience was honestly, like, invaluable at that point. I think she just, I think as a white person in a mostly black space, she, like, understood what that was gonna mean and how to show up in that way. And then just, like, she has a lot of experience and, you know, a bunch of her friends are black and all of her teammates are black and, you know, just the whole, like, culture of it. So I feel like that, like, ability to, you know, bounce things off. Cause everyone in my world was like, what the fuck? I don't know what you think you're doing, but this is crazy.
36:07
Speaker 2
You need to do something else.
36:08
Speaker 1
I appreciate the fact that the doc allows your teammates and coach to be like a little bit like, uh, it's not exactly.
36:14
Speaker 2
We're not cool with it.
36:16
Speaker 3
I mean, I definitely have some teammates who, you know, I rock with and who were there the whole time. Like, You know, Crystal Dunn, Becky Sauerbrunn, like, those were two of my closest friends. Always had my back, like, to my face, behind my back, everything. But no, most people were like, um, what if you did something else?
36:36
Speaker 1
What if you did nothing? What if you did nothing?
36:39
Speaker 2
Like, you made your point. I mean, what are you going to, you know, like.
36:41
Speaker 1
You did that one time. It's all good.
36:42
Speaker 2
Like, you probably stopped doing that now.
36:44
Speaker 1
And you didn't. The other thing I didn't know, watching the doc, I didn't know where you were from. I just sort of thought you were from the Pacific Northwest, but then I found out you were from Reading. I'm like, well, that is the Pacific Northwest. Yeah, basically. California is a huge state.
36:56
Speaker 2
It's far up there.
36:57
Speaker 1
And I think people who don't live in California don't understand that California is like seven states. Yeah, yeah. Even the state of San Francisco is different than the state of Oakland. You know what I mean? That's right. And I really enjoyed the fact that you're in Reading, you're coming down to like the big city of Sacramento. Yeah. And my kids are like, we're going to the small town of Sacramento. And learning you were from Redding, can you talk about what a town like Redding is? Because, again, people hear the word California after a town's name. And there's a beach. And it's hot all the time. And there's lots of good tacos. I mean, there's probably good tacos in Redding.
37:30
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's pretty good. We're getting a little far north, but.
37:33
Speaker 1
It's just good. And lots of diversity. They think California. Talk about Redding.
37:39
Speaker 2
Yeah, whenever I say I'm from California, people are like, cool. And I'm like, not that one. And they're like, cool. And I'm like, not that one either. And they're like, we don't, where?
37:46
Speaker 1
Where is it?
37:48
Speaker 3
It's, you know, predominantly white, really conservative. I think for white people, it's just the kind of town where, like, you don't, like, you don't notice anything else because everything's kind of the same. We have, like, a weird, you know, contingent of hippies that, you know, that are kind of around but for the most part it's a pretty working class um you know red state uh my family is it's funny you.
38:18
Speaker 1
Say that red i don't mean to interrupt but like red state because it's in this california state which is thought to be bright blue yeah but that part is.
38:24
Speaker 3
Not that part is like 70 red so it's maybe even um a little bit more so it's pretty homogenous in that way um There was a lot of, you know, it's right on I-5, so there was a big influence of drugs, I think. You know, a lot of white people, a lot of drugs, a lot of meth going on, definitely in, like, the 90s and 2000s.
38:49
Speaker 2
My family is, like, it was so weird.
38:52
Speaker 3
We were always, like, they were conservative growing up, but my mom and my dad both worked.
38:58
Speaker 2
My mom worked nights.
38:59
Speaker 3
She was a waitress, and my dad worked construction during the day, so they had a very, like, egalitarian, like, gender role thing going on. And my dad did, you know, all the laundry and bath time and homework. And my mom did all the things, too. And they just, like, we always say that they're, like, the first, like, progressivism that we ever saw.
39:18
Speaker 2
I think they get it now. I think my dad's still like, I don't know about that. But I'm like, no, you.
39:22
Speaker 3
Guys are, like, very different. And we're very matriarchal, for sure. My mom, like, runs the whole roost. So I feel like I had this weird kind of like progressive in practice upbringing and, but then, you know, in a very conservative era. So once I went to college and In Portland.
39:40
Speaker 2
I was like, oh, okay. Well, yeah, I'm liberal. This makes a lot more sense than anything else.
39:49
Speaker 1
So are they the kind of people who are conservative by values but not necessarily talking about the Republican Party?
39:54
Speaker 2
Yeah, not really.
39:57
Speaker 3
They weren't overly political, I guess, but then I'm like, how can you not be? You kind of always are. You're voting and you're you know, choosing, you know, what to do with your life. But I, I feel like they were, I think I've officially radicalized my mom. So I feel proud about that. Um, I don't think I have radicalized my dad.
40:18
Speaker 1
But he's really proud of me. I appreciate that part of the doc too, not to interrupt, but the idea that, uh, that he was like, I'm proud of her, but I don't agree with everything. I was like, wow. Also good for you for saying that and good for the film for leaving that in.
40:31
Speaker 3
I know it was, I actually love that part so much because you can see him really grappling with, I don't agree with these things that she's done, or I don't think I agree with these things that she's done, but I'm really proud of her for doing them. So like, what does that mean exactly? I think he's still sort of grappling with it. And I think he can like understand me as a person and what that would mean to do that. And also I think, you know, he has, a little bit of time on his side now and sort of hindsight. And he was like, right, it was worth it for you to do that. And I understand sort of why, but you can like see the grapple in real time.
41:14
Speaker 1
Good, I appreciated that. I'm an only child. What is seven kids? Like, I don't understand. It's crazy. And a twin. A twin, yeah. I don't understand twin. I don't understand seven sibling or what you're one of seven. Yeah. What is that life? Do you ever get to go, I need to be alone?
41:35
Speaker 2
Oh, no, not really. I mean, not, no. And it's weird. It's like, I need a lot of alone time. I like that.
41:42
Speaker 3
But then when I'm around my family, it's just like, well, we're, you know, my mom always says she's a gatherer. So it's just, we're constantly like gathering people.
41:48
Speaker 2
It's weird.
41:49
Speaker 3
It kind of happened in like phases. It's actually, my mom had five kids, but she raised seven. So she raised her youngest sister. Um, their parents died when her younger sister was like 10, basically, you know, um, both their parents, you know, died within a couple of years.
42:06
Speaker 2
My mom was like 25. She'd already had two kids at that time. So raised her.
42:11
Speaker 3
So she was, she's like the oldest out of all of us. And I was, I think she was like 15 or 16 when I was born.
42:17
Speaker 2
So there's a And so he's like the youngest. He was born when I was like 14. So it was like there's all these phases of things.
42:31
Speaker 3
There's like Austin, he's the youngest. And then like Rachel and I were kind of, you know, we're the babies, we're the twins. But like then another one came. So we're not the youngest anymore. And Brian's five years older than us. And then Michael and Jenny were from my mom's first marriage. But it was all just like this is what it is. A lot of like personality. Everyone's big personality. Everyone's boisterous. Everyone's got a lot of opinions about everything. And And there's a lot of love and a lot of fun.
42:56
Speaker 1
Are the family still centered in Reading? Yeah. Yeah.
43:00
Speaker 3
My twin sister, Rach, lives in Portland. I live in Seattle. And everyone else is there.
43:08
Speaker 1
This is an insider baseball question because you talked about it. Because I just thought this was so funny in the doc. You wanted to play professional soccer in Portland and you were so salty when it was Seattle. And I think to the outside world, people are like, isn't that the same city?
43:23
Speaker 2
I was like, I know, literally. I was like, openly hostile about it.
43:29
Speaker 3
I've, I felt personally aggrieved and I thought it was really messed up and I was so mad and I tried so hard.
43:36
Speaker 2
To change it and then we couldn't and that's, that was it.
43:40
Speaker 1
So why is the question? What is it? What, I guess we need to distinguish the difference between Portland and Seattle for those, for those folks who are like, it's all the same thing, right?
43:48
Speaker 3
Well, there was, there was two reasons. One, I had like gone to school in Portland and And I was like, cool.
43:54
Speaker 2
I just bought a house there. I was like, this is, this is great.
43:57
Speaker 3
But really, I think the real reason why I was so mad was because I felt like I was high enough on the hierarchy chain of best players at the time to.
44:07
Speaker 2
Get to choose where I wanted to go. And I was mad about it.
44:12
Speaker 3
But I think what happened was there was, I think what really happened is Alex Morgan was higher on the hierarchy chain and she had already like been allocated there.
44:21
Speaker 2
So then they're like, we can't, we can't put you.
44:24
Speaker 3
So I was like high enough to be pissed, but not high enough to actually get what I wanted.
44:28
Speaker 2
And I was like, fuck, I gotta go to Seattle. I'm pissed.
44:33
Speaker 1
So it wasn't about Seattle itself. It was just the fact that it wasn't Portland. Yeah.
44:36
Speaker 2
Just that it wasn't Portland.
44:37
Speaker 3
And Seattle's, you know, beautiful city and much more beautiful than, than Portland, I think, uh, just scenery wise.
44:43
Speaker 2
But, Yeah, it ended up all working out.
44:45
Speaker 3
And then I was really happy to be in Seattle.
44:49
Speaker 2
And then I really leaned into the rivalry. So that was fun. But I was salty.
44:53
Speaker 1
I mean, it's very sort of like, you know, to the outside world, Oakland and San Francisco is just like, well, you're sitting there right across the water. What's the big deal? And here it's like, ah! Turf war. Seattle and Portland are very much like that. Yeah, very. I want to get back into this idea of, because this is my other question about this. And I'm asking this in all seriousness. What is it like to be good at sports? Because I think that we all have had moments. There was a brief period in high school where I could grab the rim like that. That was probably my most athletic. I used to do martial arts to the point where I could do the splits. And I felt like this is my athletic peak. I can do splits and I can grab the rim. I never got to dunking. But. What is it like in your body and mind to be like, I am... Because everybody sort of wants to be good at sports. Or everybody watches it and is amazed by seeing people who are good at sports. What is it like to be good and know you're good at sports?
45:55
Speaker 3
I think it's as good as you guys think it looks. It is like.
46:00
Speaker 2
It is so awesome.
46:03
Speaker 3
Like, it's... I mean, it is like, it's like a spiritual experience, really, because you're, the thing that you played when you were little and loved and had to be drug off the field for is the thing that you're good at, great at, you know, best in the world at, is the thing that you get to keep doing. I think that's the The biggest part is you just feel this alignment of purpose in your life. And then later on, if you're a pro, you get to make money from it and all that.
46:42
Speaker 1
Actually, I want to get to the people who are like that. Not just who are like, you're a pro.
46:47
Speaker 3
The top is just like, you get to do this for a living. You get to defer this really hard question about life of like, what is your purpose?
46:55
Speaker 2
And what are you going to do in life? And what gets you up every day? You love it.
47:00
Speaker 3
There's so many like tertiary benefits to you. Like outside, at least I played an outdoor sport. You're like moving your body. You're outside all the time. You're in community. You're just like bantering. And it's just like, it's fun.
47:10
Speaker 2
And then you have a goal all the.
47:12
Speaker 3
Time that you're trying to achieve both like personally and, you know, sort of from a, you're going for a championship of the season or whatever. And yeah, someone who got to like the very highest level and you're on the world stage and you're just like, and to perform well, I think to know that, like, in your body, you're like, I got this.
47:34
Speaker 2
Like, you're just walking out every day. Like, there's no motherfucker in here that can even, like, stop me. Like, I'm me.
47:41
Speaker 1
Like, I'm her. You're not going to tell me it's not as good as you think it is. No, it is.
47:46
Speaker 2
I mean, there's parts that are.
47:47
Speaker 3
Hard of course the travel and sacrifice and you know it's hard on your body i think looking back you're like now looking back being retired i'm like damn that was kind of like crazy but no when you're in it you're just like you get me to every game i loved it too i think there are some athletes that like you know secretly hate it and i just that would be a crazy experience but i think there's something amazing about being great at something and like but never quite being great enough. Like you're always working towards something. You never really feel satisfied, but like in a, in a good way. And then, I mean, I love a crowd. So I'm a, I'm just like, Oh man, I just could never get enough. And then the bigger, the better. And it was just like, it's the best feeling. Yeah.
48:30
Speaker 2
Scoring a goal in front of like 60,000 people.
48:32
Speaker 1
Yeah. Cause I think, you know, many Americans and I would include myself as a number only this year. We're like world cup. You say, yeah, let me check this out. Like I, my eight year old who I've talked to you about before, is playing soccer now. And she called me out. She's like, Dada, how come we watch the NBA finals, but we aren't watching the World Cup? And I was like, fair point.
48:51
Speaker 2
Great question.
48:52
Speaker 1
Yeah, fair point.
48:53
Speaker 2
Great question.
48:54
Speaker 1
I can't argue with that logic. Oh, no. So there was a game on. I think it was actually the game where Messi scored three goals. And so it was actually like a game that actually had some real drama. And so there's also a thing where like even– professional athletes in this country don't have the access to that World Cup type of fever. That is like the entire world is watching you. Yeah, it's different.
49:21
Speaker 3
I mean, I think that's why the NBA players who don't care about much are like, oh, but I'm going to be on that World Cup team, or I'm going to be on that Olympics team.
49:31
Speaker 2
They're like, I have to do this, because that's something that you can't get. Yeah, the world stage.
49:38
Speaker 3
of it all and just like the pomp and circumstance of all of that is just so unique and so cool. It's like the Olympics, but just for soccer. I mean, Olympics is special for kind of bigger than the Olympics.
49:50
Speaker 1
Yeah.
49:51
Speaker 3
It's like, it's just, it's just huge to be able to, to have that experience.
49:55
Speaker 2
Everyone comes together. It's only every four years.
49:58
Speaker 3
Um, I know there's been talk about having it more often, which I think would be such a disservice.
50:03
Speaker 2
Like it's, it's special because it's scarce. It's not there. all of the time. And yeah, it's, oh my God, it's so cool.
50:10
Speaker 3
It's also like sports is one of those things that's like a combination of all these things in life that are really good for you, like moving your body, you're trying really hard, you're playing.
50:20
Speaker 2
So it's like all of these things that are just.
50:22
Speaker 3
Healthy for you and like you want to keep going back to on a daily basis, really.
50:26
Speaker 2
It's just like all right there.
50:28
Speaker 1
Which is the, again, the argument for why trans kids should be allowed to play sports because most of sports is that. It's just being outside, moving your body, learning how to lose, learning how to win, learning how to work with other people and collaborate and be in community. That's 99.99% of sports. And you're that other 1% that's also like, I also scored in the World Cup and have some titles.
50:48
Speaker 2
I also did that.
50:49
Speaker 1
Yeah. But it is. You're right.
50:50
Speaker 3
It's the 99% of it is just like, this is fun and good for you and people should participate.
50:55
Speaker 1
Yeah. What is it like? Can you talk about this to sort of know the day that it comes? And I don't know if it comes all in one day or if it comes in pieces where you're like, Oh, I'm not that athlete anymore.
51:05
Speaker 3
Oh yeah.
51:07
Speaker 2
Um, it cut a little bit of both.
51:11
Speaker 3
Um, you certainly like feel it, you know, there's different stages of it. I think like around, I tore my ACL twice in college and that was kind of like the first phase of it. And I tore the other one in when I was 30. So it was also kind of the time where it's like, you already, this is the time you need to change some shit. You're not going to do the same thing from 21 until you're retired. Um, if you want to have a long career around 30, that sort of starts to change. So already you're like, okay, but you can kind of like get a bump. I think you start training differently.
51:42
Speaker 2
You're smarter. You're kind of at like your, your prime of.
51:46
Speaker 3
I think your physical prime comes before your mental prime, but it's still, your physical still good enough to where it's can meet your, your mental prime. And then after 2019, 20 was weird too, because of COVID, but definitely like 21, 22, I ended up retiring in 23. Just couldn't, I couldn't run as fast for as long, couldn't perform at the same level. And then it's really just like, okay, what are we doing to maintain a baseline level? Because you drop below that. At some point, if you can't run, you can't run.
52:27
Speaker 2
And it's hard. You're injured more. There's definitely an acceptance of I used to be able to bust your ass, but like, I can't now. Like I am better than you, you know, and they're all the young kids.
52:39
Speaker 1
They're young. In the aggregate, I'm better than you. You will never be as good as I was, but I'm not as good as you now.
52:46
Speaker 2
Yeah.
52:46
Speaker 3
And I'm like, dang, I used to be able to get after this in a different way. Um, And then there is just like a real acceptance of, and I think a lot of athletes struggle with this and they have a sharper turn at the end and acceptance of, of this is what I can do still. And this is what I can't do. So let's just focus on what I can and, and try to mask the rest. And then, yeah, I mean, I had a, I had torn my Achilles in my final game.
53:10
Speaker 2
So that was, that was like, I'm really done.
53:13
Speaker 1
Is that, is that somehow like, I mean, not that you're like, yay, but it's like, well, it's just, it's.
53:17
Speaker 2
Oh, it felt so like, just so poetic.
53:21
Speaker 3
I was like, of course, you know, like I wish I would have been able to play the whole game and all that. But also I think as an athlete, you have to accept every time you get out there, you know, something crazy can happen.
53:33
Speaker 2
So I was just like, of course that happened.
53:47
Speaker 1
Yeah. Have you ever heard the Brian Scalabrini talk about professional athletes? You know, Brian Scalabrini?
53:58
Speaker 2
Yeah, I do. Yeah, the redhead?
53:59
Speaker 1
Yeah, the redhead that he would get challenged by people all the time on the internet because he was like, you suck, you're an NBA journeyman. And then he said... I am closer to being Michael Jordan than you are to being me. I always thought that was such a like, and then he actually played against, he went out and played, and this was after he retired, against like people who had played in college, people who played overseas, and he beat all of them. So people who had played high level Confederate basketball was like, you don't understand. The level I played at, even though you think I suck, I am just way better than you.
54:29
Speaker 2
Oh, way, way better.
54:31
Speaker 3
Way better. I, I, I actually really feel for those athletes as sort of like, not a starter, but you're good enough to be there. Because it's like, you're always just going to feel like, I'm not that good. But it's like, you're so much better than literally everybody else. You know, there's always a sort of hierarchy in it.
54:51
Speaker 2
And that's tough.
54:52
Speaker 1
So one of the things, I mean, this happens to show, but especially in sports, how do you deal with your ego when you realize... you're not, that it's, like, how do you deal with your ego today? I would imagine you still have Megan Rapinoe World Cup ego, and now you're living your life, you're doing things, you've got a documentary. How do you replace that ego feed that is, I'm the best at this and I'm going to bust your ass?
55:17
Speaker 3
Well, it was, oh gosh, a real crisis of it in the beginning, I think, to go from, like, having an outlet of confidence, like to have a place where you could go for confidence to, I think especially for athletes, it's like one day you're playing, the next day you're not.
55:35
Speaker 2
Your career is over. So I think I really struggled with like, it wasn't so much.
55:41
Speaker 3
I was feeling like I need to, you know, be the star player in a stadium. Like, I know that's not even available. It was more just like, oh, I don't feel like I'm good at anything.
55:53
Speaker 2
And that is.
55:53
Speaker 3
Weird because I've been really good at a lot of things and great at something too. So it was like that outlet. So I think some of it is just like, you got to go through that crisis. Like, you're not going to skirt it. You're not going to, therapy's not going to, let you avoid it. It's going to take you through it. I think I came to therapy right at the end of my career. And that was really important to start to, in general, understand my emotions better and how to regulate myself and, you know, basically just understand myself better.
56:25
Speaker 2
But then to go through that also.
56:27
Speaker 3
Like this is a normal experience and this is how you navigate that.
56:31
Speaker 2
But it's really hard. And another thing I think is, is.
56:36
Speaker 3
Letting go of or just accepting that there isn't another feeling of the performance I had in the 2019 World Cup.
56:46
Speaker 1
I'm not scoring in France.
56:49
Speaker 2
Against France, in the quarterfinal and sealing the game.
56:52
Speaker 1
There's no hobby that replaces that?
56:54
Speaker 2
There's nothing, right?
56:56
Speaker 1
I'm going to get into expensive coffees.
56:58
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly.
56:59
Speaker 3
I'm going to learn how to make my own coffee. No, the barista can make it better than you.
57:03
Speaker 2
So just like, what are you talking about?
57:05
Speaker 3
But there's nothing to replace that. But there's a lot of other things that we couldn't do that we've never experienced. Even just like being around family more or friends more, even like literally the joy of walking. I just never walk because I can't afford to, you know, put a quarter of a mile on my legs. But just something like, so it's like you are giving something up. And at the same time, you're Allowing for a lot more space for a different kind of pace in life.
57:34
Speaker 2
And I think a lot of athletes really struggle with that. I struggle with that. We're used to an adrenaline roller coaster all the time.
57:40
Speaker 3
You're used to, you know, huge ego hits. And even the part where you're down is still kind of in the same thing because you're like, I'm coming back. And you have that like thing.
57:51
Speaker 2
But I think it's really more about like learning how to live a little bit slower, calmer life.
57:57
Speaker 1
That would, I can imagine. I mean, you hear about it all the time with athletes. How do you replace the competition? How do you replace the camaraderie of being around your fellow athletes? You know, so it's a thing that is, and I can't imagine because I'm in an ego business, but also I have a longer window of like, you know, you know, Mort Saul was performing until he died. You know what I mean? So there's a longer window of opportunity to do the thing.
58:20
Speaker 3
I think the things I miss the most are the locker room and the friends and the banter. So you can recreate community in a different kind of way in those sort of relationships.
58:31
Speaker 2
I do miss the championship game. Anytime I watch.
58:35
Speaker 1
Do you watch?
58:36
Speaker 2
Yeah, definitely.
58:37
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.
58:37
Speaker 3
I mean, I love sports, too. I've just been such a huge sports fan. So if it's... I mean, a game seven or a knockout round game. Obviously, I was into the World Cup. Anything like that where all the stakes are on it, I'm just like, oh, my God.
58:54
Speaker 2
I want to be there so bad. But that's the only moment that I want. I don't want to do any of the work required to get there.
59:00
Speaker 3
So I'm going to take my walk before and then watch the game.
59:03
Speaker 1
Do you play soccer for funsies? I mean, you're in good, you're still in shape. Do you, is it just sort of, it's just.
59:09
Speaker 2
Never.
59:10
Speaker 3
Um, I haven't ever since I've done play. I mean, I tore my Achilles at the end. So I had, you know, a rehab after that. I think for me, I'm like, I played, I did it. I think I would have to like do a lot of training just to get my body to a place where it wouldn't, you know, like a leg wouldn't fall off if I was playing. And I don't miss soccer like that. There's other things that I miss about it. Like I miss, you know, in 2024, we went, a few of the old players went to the championship game for the Olympics. And, like, being with them in that, like, that's basically, like, pickup for me. I'm like, that's what I want. I don't want to play pickup and, like, roll my ankle. I don't want to be injured as a regular person.
59:56
Speaker 1
It's a nightmare. You don't want to tell your Achilles again or your ACL again.
59:59
Speaker 2
Yeah.
1:00:00
Speaker 1
What is it like to see, like, when you said you came out to your parents and in the doc you talk about this, and In my mind, I would imagine some parents I know know their kids are gay and are just waiting for the moment. And you seemed like a kid who was presenting as gay. Yeah.
1:00:20
Speaker 2
I had a lot of questions about their surprise.
1:00:23
Speaker 1
But I also understand that there's parents who are just like, my head is down. Megan is just Megan. There's not a sense of even maybe not investigating. And you were sort of like your parents were not prepared for it in the way that you maybe thought they would be. You are part of a wave of people who came out publicly to help other people come out. what do you think about the current state of, of LGBTQ issues in this country?
1:00:51
Speaker 2
Well, I think.
1:00:53
Speaker 3
First of all, we've seen so much progress just in terms of like, like the spectrum of expression, you know, even in sports leagues, you see it. I mean, certainly in women's sports leagues, men's sports leagues are still very closeted.
1:01:11
Speaker 2
Um, And very homophobic.
1:01:13
Speaker 1
Sort of surprising. I mean, I just, I get it. I understand it. I get it. But just also like, still?
1:01:20
Speaker 2
I'm still just like, kind of shocked.
1:01:23
Speaker 1
I'm like, dang.
1:01:25
Speaker 2
It's crazy.
1:01:26
Speaker 3
I mean, it speaks to the fear and the level of homophobia and all of that.
1:01:31
Speaker 2
But we have made so much progress.
1:01:33
Speaker 3
I say, you know, even just like little kids, you walk by a school and it's just like, it looks a lot different than when I went to school. And in stadiums, I saw it and just like as fans and stuff.
1:01:46
Speaker 2
So that part is like really cool. People just are.
1:01:51
Speaker 3
Having so much more access to information and seeing so much more that they can resonate with in themselves. And that's probably why there's so much backlash is because so many more people are, are being themselves. And it's, it's just, I mean, I don't want to continue being shocked by it because this, you know, it's, it, it's a classic trait of a, of America, but in our political leaders, but just the level of hate and, And, like, cowardice and lack of leadership and, like, spinelessness of some of these people is just kind of shocking and really sad.
1:02:36
Speaker 2
And I'm just kind of like, for what? You know, like, for literally what?
1:02:42
Speaker 3
It doesn't, like, matter and doesn't really affect other people if people are gay. And so that part is really hard. And I know, you know, for me, like, all these laws don't affect me. You know, I'm a famous person and I'm out and I have a ton of privilege and I'm really protected in so many.
1:02:59
Speaker 1
And you can choose where you live. Yeah, I can choose.
1:03:00
Speaker 3
Where I live in liberal cities. But for so many people, I mean, these rollbacks are dangerous for them or there's an uptick in, you know, killings or violence against, I mean, everybody really, but, you know, specifically LGBTQ people and trans people and, you know, all the intersections of that. And it's just like, it's just really sad to see and sad to know people are afraid to be themselves in the context of, yes, we've made.
1:03:30
Speaker 2
A lot of progress in a lot of ways.
1:03:31
Speaker 3
And there's a lot more ability to be yourself on a wider spectrum. And that's the thing that, you know, they're scared of.
1:03:40
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think sort of just connected back to you and Kaepernick is the idea that like, I wish, and I feel this way about my business too, whenever I get hired to, not hired, sometimes hired, but whenever I get asked to do things, activist-y things or speak out or even like, can you promote this thing? Can you collab on this post about activism? And I'm sometimes like, man, you couldn't get nobody more famous than me? You know what I mean? Like, I just feel like that like, where are the other famouses of my generation knowing what's at stake right now? And I feel the same way about you and Kaepernick. Like, you should not be, you two are still sort of in the, minority group, you know, of athletes, powerful athletes who are saying no to things very loudly and consistently and standing up for rights loudly and consistently.
1:04:23
Speaker 2
That is shocking too.
1:04:25
Speaker 3
I think sometimes I hesitate to say because it's like, you know, whatever.
1:04:30
Speaker 2
I don't always want to call people out.
1:04:31
Speaker 1
Everybody's carrying their own thing. You got their own thing and blah, blah, blah.
1:04:34
Speaker 3
Or like to have it seem, you know, like a horn toot or something. But it is just shocking the level of silence and cowardice that the most powerful people Celebrities, athletes, business leaders, people in general who are not affected at all by the things that they could be speaking out on. They're like, it's not even a sacrifice to say most of the things. that we say and that, you know, you're willing to say, or I'm willing to say, or we, we speak on. And so just like that level of, of selfishness is, is, is, you know, in a big part why we are in our country, the way that, the way that we are. And it's, and it's really sad. And, and I, you know, it's a little trite to say, but I'm just like, if all of us aren't free, none of us are free. Like where we all breathe the same air and live in the same season, live in the same country. Like eventually, like, you know, the disease gets to the center.
1:05:29
Speaker 1
Yes. So I know a dad who has an, uh, who has an eight year old who plays soccer, uh, who did a couple of years of like non-competitive where they didn't keep score. There was no goalie and, and all the kids had a great time. And the soccer coaches were two, were like three dads who are also has kids were in it. And it was just like, it was just fun. And those coaches were great. And then, uh, this dad's kid's friends decided to try out for a competitive league. Now there's like levels. And that dad's kid, not my kid, I'm not talking about my kid, made a level of the competitive league and now is playing against other kids from around the Bay Area who clearly have been playing competitive soccer longer. The kids, that dad's kid and the kids on that team are having a great time But sometimes we've got to turn the scoreboard off because it's not– it's just– I mean, I don't think they turn it off. I just stopped counting. And it's just– They're losing. Yeah. This dad's kids, they're losing by a significant margin. Yeah. And I recently saw a goalie on the other team sit down. during the game because they knew that there was nothing coming down. There's nothing coming down on the opposite team. They're never getting the ball down this way, so I'm going to sit down. The coach was like, please stand up. Some of that dad's fellow parents are feeling the emotions, but the kids are having a great time. They're not yet registering it as wins. They know they're, yeah, we lost. We lost by one. But the Parents are sort of like starting to have like, what do we, what do we, what do we, what do we? And I even had some of that. I texted my wife like, what do we, or do we need to? So I'm going to ask you for advice.
1:07:17
Speaker 2
Well, that was going to be my question. Are the kids having fun?
1:07:19
Speaker 1
The kids are having fun.
1:07:20
Speaker 3
And that's all that matters. I'm just like, I know. Like eventually, you know, it's like. There is something to like the competitiveness of it that I think is healthy. Kids learn how to compete and be in conflict and try really hard for things.
1:07:38
Speaker 1
All that.
1:07:39
Speaker 2
But at such a young age, I'm just like, I don't know. Are they having fun? Are they running around and like getting popsicles after?
1:07:45
Speaker 1
Yes. We do bobas now. Yeah. Oh, gosh.
1:07:48
Speaker 2
I love that.
1:07:49
Speaker 1
Yeah.
1:07:49
Speaker 2
Just progress.
1:07:52
Speaker 1
Yeah.
1:07:53
Speaker 3
I'm just like if they're having fun and running around and they don't really– care that much i think the they'll start to care when they start hearing the what about what about what about what about like and then they're like wait are we doing something wrong because they probably they're like we lost by one hundred but we're not gonna tell you that you need to know how to count 200 so yeah it's just like i think you i mean i could diatribe about youth sports it's crazy but i think so much of the pressure is just coming from The parents and then, you know, to your point earlier about 99% of people and kids who play sports and then all the benefit that comes from that. You start taking away those benefits when you're like it doesn't matter if they lose by 100. It matters if they're with their friends and they're hanging out and they're chilling. Then it's like it's kind of funny too because you're like you guys are so bad.
1:08:42
Speaker 1
Yeah. Tough.
1:08:44
Speaker 2
But here's your boba.
1:08:45
Speaker 1
I mean, it's funny because at the beginning of this conversation, I was like, it's mostly about fun, 99%. And then as a parent, I'm like, maybe it's a little bit about. Yeah, a little bit. But I appreciate you saying that because I keep trying to remind myself of that. But I need you to say it. And I also need to play this clip for some. Yeah. dad. I mean, I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about a friend, a friend, a dad who I know, adjacent dad. So I'm going to play it for him. And I'm going to send this clip to the parents of the, in the group chat for the parents of that team that I don't know at all. I'll have the dad send it.
1:09:13
Speaker 2
It's just not even, it's barely a friend.
1:09:15
Speaker 1
It's barely a friend. Barely. I don't even like that guy. I'm really hard on him. Um, My penultimate question is, I always ask people, as you know, I don't know if I've talked to many people who listen to the podcast, but thank you.
1:09:28
Speaker 2
I love your pod.
1:09:29
Speaker 1
Thank you. A cause, a thing that you want people to support, that you want people to get behind in these times?
1:09:37
Speaker 3
I mean, it's going to be a really basic one, but like voting. I feel like it's one of these things where... We say voting. People are like, well, yeah, OK, you know, that's like the bare minimum you can do. It's like, well, OK, but let's not miss the low hanging fruit here. Let's do all we can. Obviously, the midterms are coming up. We see what absolute insanity is going on right now. I think people of all political affiliations and all types of people all over the country and every different station and situation are um, are feeling the effects of the collective choices that we have all made. And I think feeling the, um, effects of maybe our, our lack of participation in these choices. Like I always say politics is going to interact with you, whether you interact.
1:10:26
Speaker 2
With it or not.
1:10:27
Speaker 3
So, you know, there's, there's lots of great organizations, obviously I work with, uh, when we all vote which is Michelle Obama's organization. I know you talk about voting all the time, but like, let's not miss the most obvious thing that we can all participate in. So tell people to knock on doors, tell your friends, tell your family. It's, you know, like when we when we don't participate and when we abdicate our responsibility and power, like somebody is going to take it.
1:10:57
Speaker 1
They're taking it.
1:10:58
Speaker 2
They're taking it right now.
1:10:58
Speaker 1
And I think if you're the person who's listening to this who's like, of course we vote, then make sure the people in your life have that same attitude, like, of course we vote. Of course we vote. There's always talk about, do you have a plan to vote? Especially where you live in this country, you may need a real specific plan because if you live in certain parts of the country, they're working against you and they want you not to vote and they want to intimidate you. Especially if you live in a place where ice is very plentiful. And I don't mean the frozen water. But So I think the idea of being like, and then also get the people in your life motivated to vote and registered to vote.
1:11:30
Speaker 3
Yeah.
1:11:30
Speaker 1
Yeah.
1:11:30
Speaker 2
I think that's the biggest one.
1:11:32
Speaker 3
Especially if you're, you know, more politically active or conscious or talk about it a lot, like do that work. I think people always are like, well, I don't really know what to do. Or, you know, there's, it's like, what can I do? I'm just like a normal person. Like hit the group chat, hit the group chat, make plans for people and make sure that they're going to vote and get that word out.
1:11:50
Speaker 1
Send them a link to register to vote. It's all happening. Thank you for showing up. Thank you for showing up here.
1:11:55
Speaker 3
Yeah.
1:11:56
Speaker 1
Thank you for showing up in the world, being consistent. Thank you for doing it when you were scared or you get in over your head. Thank you for being very clear on, you know, issues that are outside of your, you know, like, you know, you're very clearly an anti-racist, even though you could be like, that's not my issue. And I really appreciate it. And I really appreciate the kindness you've always shown me. And thank you for showing up today.
1:12:19
Speaker 2
Thank you for having me.
1:12:20
Speaker 1
And my last question. Uh, podcast is called who's with me. Are you with me?
1:12:25
Speaker 2
I'm with you. I'm with you.
1:12:28
Speaker 1
Definitely. Good. Good. I didn't ruin it. Good. No. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Thanks to Megan Rapinoe for coming through on this episode. Again, her documentary Rapinoe will be out at some point. Please check it out. Also again, pre-order rock, paper, scissors, cheese. Uh, yeah, it's coming out October 27th. Pre-order it now. It really helps us, uh, Get on those bestseller lists that then help the book sell more and more copies. And everybody who reads it really has a good time with it. Again, if you don't have kids in your life, buy it because you'll meet a kid one day who needs a gift and you'll have a gift already there and you'll look like a magician. I asked Megan about whatever, what cause that she wants us to support. She said voting. Again, the voting is coming up. The midterms are coming up. It's a great opportunity to tell Trump and MAGA no. So just go vote. Don't get caught up in like if he's still in the election or blah, blah, blah or If he's a fascist, he is a fascist. Is he going to leave in 2028? Probably not. But this is an opportunity to tell him no and to start to build our power for whatever comes next. And it's going to be a lot. So, yeah, so please, yeah, go out and vote. And she supports the organization When We All Vote, which is apparently led by, I think, Michelle Obama. When We All Vote. So check out When We All Vote and do that. Thank you for listening to Who's With Me. Thanks to Pushkin Industries. Thanks to Rabbit Grand Productions. Thanks to Skyline Studios in Oakland. Thanks to Who Knows Best Productions, which is me right here. Shout out to Fishbone! Chris Dow to Fishbone for the theme song. And yeah, this week, do something good for yourself. Do something good for your community. Do something good for the world. And see you next week.
The Host
