Dr. Maya Shankar
Maya Shankar is a cognitive scientist who served as a Senior Advisor in the Obama White House, where she founded and served as Chair of the White House Behavioral Science…
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When a Black jazz musician meets a Klansman at a bar, his life takes a sudden turn. He ends up inspiring hundreds of people to leave white supremacist groups.
Daryl Davis
So I was riding in my car. I'm driving, and this Klansman was sitting in my passenger seat, and we got on the topic of crime. And he made the mention that Black people are born with a gene that makes them violent. And I said, "Look, I'm as Black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a drive-by or a carjacking. How do you explain that?" This man did not hesitate. One second, he answered me instantly. He said, "Your gene is latent. It hasn't come out yet."
Maya Shankar
That's Daryl Davis, a blues musician. And yeah, you heard him right. He's driving in his car with a member of the Ku Klux Klan.
Daryl Davis
I was speechless, I was dumbfounded. And he's sitting next to me with all smug and secure like, "You see? You have nothing to say." And I thought about it for a moment. Rather than attack and just say, "It's not true. It's not true," I said to him, I said, "White people have a gene within them that make them serial killers." And he said, "Why would you say that?" I said, "Well, face it. Name me three Black serial killers." He thought about it. He couldn't name anybody. He couldn't do it. I rattled off "Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, Henry Lee Lucas, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz, Son of Sam, Albert DeSalvo, the Boston Strangler."
And I said, "Son, you are a serial killer." And he said, "Daryl, I've never killed anybody." I said, "Your gene is latent; hasn't come out yet." He said, "Well, that's stupid." And I said, "Well, duh, it is stupid." And he got very, very quiet. And I could tell that the gears in his head were spinning super fast, probably burning a hole in there. And then he, a moment later, he changed the subject. But within five months, this guy quit the Ku Klux Klan.
Maya Shankar
Since that car ride 30 years ago, Daryl Davis has gone on to convince dozens of people to leave the Ku Klux Klan. Convincing someone else to change their mind, their view of reality is one of the most elusive, coveted types of change, which is why Daryl's story feels so improbable. So how does he do it?
I'm Maya Shankar. As a cognitive scientist, I've always been fascinated by how we change our minds and why we change our minds. On the show, I'll have intimate conversations with people who've navigated extraordinary change, and hopefully their stories will get us to think differently about change in our own lives. This is "A Slight Change of Plans."
Daryl didn't set out to change anyone's mind. He was mostly just focused on his music. But one night, his life took an unexpected turn when he was playing a show at a bar called "The Silver Dollar Lounge."
Daryl Davis
The Silver Dollar Lounge at the time was an all-white lounge. And I say that not meaning that Black people could not go in, but meaning that they did not go in by their own choice because they were not welcome there. And when you go somewhere where you're not welcome, and alcohol is being served, sometimes it is not made for a good combination, especially when you're outnumbered. So we took a break after the first set, and I was walking across the dance floor to go sit with the band mates when somebody approached me from behind and put their arm around my shoulder.
Now, I don't know anybody in this place, so I'm turning around to see who's touching me. And it was this gentleman, maybe 15, 18 years older than me, and he's all excited. And he says, "Man, I sure like your piano playing. This is the first time I ever heard a Black man play piano like Jerry Lee Lewis." And I told him, I said, "Well, Jerry Lee got it from the same place I did, from Black Blues and Boogie Woogie piano players." "Oh, no, no, no, no. I ain't never heard no Black man play like that except for you. Jerry Lee invented that style." I said, "Look, I know Jerry Lee Lewis. He's a good friend of mine. He's told me himself where he to learn how to play."
The guy didn't buy that either. But he was so fascinated with me that he wanted me to come back to his table; he's going to buy me a drink. So I don't drink, but I agreed to have a cranberry juice. He bought it, paid the waitress, and then he took his glass, and he clinked my glass, and cheered me. And then he announces, "You know, this is the first time I ever sat down with a Black man and had a drink." So innocently, I asked him, "Why?" And he didn't answer me at first. I asked him again. And his buddy sitting next to him elbowed him and said, "Tell him. Tell him." And the guy looked at me and said, "I'm a member of the Ku Klux Klan."
Well, I burst out laughing at him because now, I do not believe him. I thought he was pulling a joke on me. I'm laughing. He goes inside his pocket, pulls out his wallet, flips through it, and hands me his Klan membership card. I recognize the Klan insignia, which is a red circle with a white cross, and a red blood drop in the center of the cross. And I'm thinking to myself, "Oh my goodness, this is for real," so I stopped laughing. But he was very friendly, and very appreciative of my music, and all excited. He gave me his phone number to call him whenever I was to return to this bar with this band. And so I'd call him every six weeks and say, "Hey, man, I'm down there at The Silver Dollar this weekend. Come on out."
Maya Shankar
You say it so nonchalantly like, "So I called the guy." It is remarkable that you called this person. And I don't think I'm alone in struggling to understand what was going through your mind at this moment. If someone told me that they were in the freaking Klan, I would certainly not call them back. In fact, I'd probably just flee the scene. And I think this is for pretty good reasons.
Daryl Davis
Well, I was questioning myself for a second. "What the heck am I doing sitting here with a Klansman?" But the guy was friendly. He disputed the things that I had in mind of the image of a typical Klansman, and he wanted to share my music with some of his fellow Klansmen and Klanswomen. And they would get on the dance floor and dance to our music. They didn't come in robes and hoods. They came in regular street clothes.
Maya Shankar
This goes on for a year, an entire year. Daryl would play a gig at this bar, and he would invite Klan members to watch him play. This is one of those things that makes Daryl so unusual. I mean, for me, a huge part of what makes someone who they are is their belief system. And so if we share the same taste in music, that's fine, that's great. But if I then find out they're a flagrant racist, that's going to fully eclipse everything else about them. So how does Daryl look past that? He says it's not like that. He wasn't looking past it. He wanted to learn from it. See, Daryl had spent his early childhood overseas in a school he describes as a United Nations for little kids. Race was always in the background. But when he moved back to the states when he was 10, he couldn't escape racism, and ever since then, he's been interested in why people hate.
Daryl Davis
I had had an experience at the age of 10 where some racist people threw rocks and bottles at me during a parade in which I was the only Black participant. And never having had this happen to me before, I was perplexed as to why people were doing this. And when later my parents explained that it was racism, my 10-year-old brain could not process the idea that someone who had never seen me before, who had never spoken with me and knew nothing about me, would want to inflict pain upon me for no other reason than the color of my skin. That just did not compute with me.
Well, later when I realized this was true, there are people like that, I formed a question in my mind, which was, "How can you hate me when you don't even know me?" And some people would just say, "Well, Daryl, that's just the way it is." Well, no, it's not just the way it is. There has to be a reason behind it. Well, it's always been that way. That was not good enough for me. I wanted to get to the nucleus of it.
Maya Shankar
So Daryl dedicates himself to answering this question. He devours books about race and racism. He reads nearly every book that exists on the Klan, but he's still unsatisfied. So he decides he wants to write his own book about the Klan.
Daryl Davis
All the books written on the Klan, except for mine, have been written by white authors. White authors obviously, have an easier time getting in contact with the Klan, and sitting down, and not fearing any ramifications or whatever. Or they might even join the Klan undercover. A Klansman would have a different perspective sitting there talking to a Black person than he would a white person.
Maya Shankar
And how do you feel that perspective would've been different?
Daryl Davis
Because he's sitting there telling the person that he hates why he hates them. So now he's having to face me and face those same questions that somebody would ask, or even different questions than a white interviewer journalist would not ask. Because they don't think of him because they don't feel the same things that I feel.
Maya Shankar
As Daryl starts researching for his book, it suddenly dawns on him. He already knows someone in the Klan, that guy from the Silver Dollar Lounge. So he goes on a mission to track him down. It takes a while, but eventually he finds the guy's address.
Daryl Davis
And I knocked on the door unannounced, and he opens the door and sees me goes, "Daryl, what are you doing here?" And he looked up and down the hallway to see if I brought anybody with me. So it was more of him who was intimidated than me. And when he stepped out of his apartment, I stepped in. So he turns around and comes back in. So now we're standing inside his apartment and he says, "What's going on? Are you still playing? What's going on?" I said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm still playing. But listen, I need to talk to you about the Klan." He says, "The Klan?" I said, "Yeah." He goes, "Well, I quit. I quit a while back." I said, "Well, where's all your Klan stuff?" He says, "Well, they came and got it." And I said, "What do you mean they came and got your robe and hood? Don't you own it?"
And he explained to me, "When you joined the Klan, if you have the money to pay for it, you can purchase your robe and hood, and it's yours to keep forever. If you cannot afford it at the time, you can still take it home with you, but you put a little extra money in every time you pay your dues until you pay it off," so a layaway kind of thing.
Maya Shankar
A bizarre financial aid system within the Klan. Love it.
Daryl Davis
Yes, exactly.
Maya Shankar
Equal opportunity for everyone who's racist.
Daryl Davis
That's right.
Maya Shankar
Okay.
Daryl Davis
Absolutely. So anyway, he said that they came and got it, but when they came to get it, he could not find the mask. And he had since found it, and he needed to return it. I said, "Well, can I see it?" So he goes down the hallway, comes back and hands me the mask. And I said to him, I said, "Do you know Roger Kelly?" And he says, "Yeah, Roger was my Grand Dragon. I know him." And I said, "Well, listen, I need you to hook me up with Mr. Kelly. I want to interview him. I'm going to write a book on the Klan."
Now, let me explain how the hierarchy of the Klan works so you understand these terms. We would call a state leader a governor. They call that the Grand Dragon. A mayor, that person is known as the Exalted Cyclops. Anybody on the great level is a... Yeah-
Maya Shankar
Sorry. The self-importance of these names is just truly astonishing.
Daryl Davis
Well, yeah, but see, that's also what attracts people because they get titles that feel important.
Maya Shankar
Yes.
Daryl Davis
It's a sense of self-importance because they're not getting that from the society in which they live. So this brotherhood, this gang, if you will, gives them those things.
So at the time, Roger Kelly was the Grand Dragon, state leader from Maryland. So I said, "I'll tell you what, you need to return this mask, right?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "Give me Roger Kelly's phone number and his address, and I'll go and return it for you." And he snatched that thing right out of my hand and said, "No way." And so I begged and pleaded with him. Well, he finally gave it to me on the condition that I not revealed to Mr. Kelly where I got it. And he warned me. He said, "Daryl, do not go to Roger Kelly's house. Roger Kelly will kill you." And I said, "Well, that's the whole reason why I need to talk to Mr. Kelly. I need to know why would he kill me? What is going on in his mind when he sees me? I have to understand this."
Maya Shankar
You did realize that you might not get the answer to the question if in fact the dangerous part happened first, right?
Daryl Davis
True. This is true. But I was thinking that I would prevail. I'm the eternal optimist, if you will.
Maya Shankar
Well, I am not the eternal optimist, and Daryl's decision feels incredibly risky. But anyway, he has his secretary, Mary, call and schedule the interview, and he gives her one important instruction.
Daryl Davis
Do not tell him that I'm Black, and see if he would consent to sitting down and giving her boss an interview. I figured he might pick up in my voice that I'm Black, and I didn't want him to hang up the phone and say, "I'm not talking to you?" And then my whole project would've ended before it ever got started.
Maya Shankar
Roger Kelly agrees to meet for an interview one evening at a nearby motel. Daryl gets to the motel early with Mary. He's not sure if Roger will even agree to step foot in the room, but if he does, Daryl wants to be hospitable. He asks Mary to fill up the ice bucket and buy some sodas, and then they start arranging the room. There's not much to arrange. There's the ice bucket, a table, two chairs and Daryl's canvas bag, which has his tape recorder and a Bible.
Daryl Davis
The Klan claims to be a Christian organization, and they claim that the Bible preaches racial separation. Now, in my reading of the Bible, I have never seen anything like that in there. So I want to be able to pull up my Bible and hand it to him and say, "Here, Mr. Kelly, please show me chapter and verse where it says, 'Blacks and whites must be separate.'" So I'm all prepared.
Right on time, right to the minute, 5:15, knock, knock, knock on the door. In walks what is known as the Grand Nighthawk. Nighthawk means bodyguard security. He's dressed in military camouflage, and he has that Klan patch on his chest on one side. On the other side of his chest are the initials, KKK, and embroidered on his cap, it said, "Knights of the Ku Klux Klan," and on his hip, he had a semi-automatic handgun in a holster. He comes in, Mr. Kelly is walking directly behind him, carrying a briefcase in a dark blue suit and tie. And the Nighthawk turned the corner, and saw me, and just froze in his tracks. So Mr. Kelly slammed into his back and knocked this guy forward. And now they both are stumbling around trying to regain their balance.
And they're looking all around the room like, "Uh-huh, something's not right here." And I'm just sitting at the table looking at their faces, and I could read their faces like a billboard. Their faces were saying to me, "Did the desk clerk give us the wrong room number? Did we misunderstand something? Or is this an ambush?" So I saw the apprehension. And so I stood up, and I displayed both of my palms to show I had nothing in my hands. And I walked forward, I extended my right hand and I said, "Hi, Mr. Kelly. I'm Daryl Davis."
Maya Shankar
We'll be right back with "A Slight Change Of Plans."
You're listening to "A Slight Change of Plans." I'm Maya Shankar. So there they are. Roger Kelly, the Grand Dragon of the Klan face-to-face with Daryl Davis. Daryl reaches out to shake Roger's hand, and Roger shakes his hand back. It seems like the interview is going to happen, but before he can dive in with his first question, Roger asked to see Daryl's ID. So Daryl hands in his driver's license.
Daryl Davis
And then he looks at it and he says, "Oh, you live on such and such street." And so now I'm wondering, "Why is this man reading my address? Is he going to come burn across at my house or what?" So that had me a little concerned, but I didn't want to let him know that he had rattled me a little bit. And so I said to him, I said, "Yes, Mr. Kelly, that is where I live, and you live at" and I named his house number and his street.
Maya Shankar
That's a pretty good mic drop line.
Daryl Davis
Yeah, because if you come visit me, I'm going to come visit you. So maybe it's better that we just confined all this visiting to this motel room. So anyway, we started with this interview.
Got some cold drinks if y'all want something.
Maya Shankar
This is the actual cassette tape from the meeting.
Daryl Davis
Okay. First, what got you interested in the Ku Klux Klan?
Roger Kelly
I was always interested as a kid. When I was going to school, I was interested. I was fascinated by the rituals, the robes, the cross burning, things like that.
Daryl Davis
And did you have family in the Klan? Was it a friend introduced you to the Klan?
Roger Kelly
My grandpa was in the Klan years ago.
Daryl Davis
We began talking, and every time my cassette would run out of tape, I'd reach down into my bag to get a fresh cassette, or if Mr. Kelly tried to make some biblical point, I'd reach down in my bag and pull out the Bible. The Nighthawk was standing to Mr. Kelly's right at full attention, and every time I reached down, the Nighthawk reached up to his gun. Well, after about an hour or so, the bodyguard relaxed. He realized there was no threat in the bag. And I went in and out of the bag, he didn't move. A little over an hour into this, Mr. Kelly and I were just having casual conversation, and there was a quick short noise that occurred out of nowhere. It sounded like this.
And because it came out of nowhere suddenly, and it was so fast and so short, my ear could not discern it. So I perceived it to be a threatening noise. I knew that Mr. Kelly had made this noise. How did I know that? Because I didn't make it. And I feared for my life. I'm not armed. My secretary is not armed. The only person who I know for sure is armed is the Nighthawk. I can see his gun on his hip. I don't know if Mr. Kelly carries one up under his suit jacket or not. All I know is I don't want to die. I'm looking right into Mr. Kelly's eyes. I mean, I'm just like inches away from him. And his eyes were fixated on mine. Mine were fixated on his. Neither one of us said a word.
My eyes were saying to him, "What did you just do?" And I realized his eyes were saying to me, "What did you just do?" And the Nighthawk was looking back and forth between both of us like, "What did either one of y'all just do?" While Mary was sitting to my left on top of the dresser, because there were no more chairs in the room. And she realized what had happened, and she began explaining it to us when had happened again. The ice in the ice bucket had begun melting, and the cans of soda pop were shifting down the ice.
Maya Shankar
Wow.
Daryl Davis
And then of course, when she explained it and it happened again, we all began laughing. We all began laughing at the same thing. Everybody in that room became human in that moment. We all feared. We all feared each other. Somebody could have gotten shot over an ice cube. All right, just think about that for a second.
Maya Shankar
After this interview, Daryl and Roger, keep in touch. Daryl is still curious about Roger's perspective and how it might answer the question Daryl's been asking for decades. "How can you hate me if you don't even know me?" And now the two were actually getting to know each other. Was there a point where you thought, "Hey, wait a second, I might actually be able to get this Roger Kelly guy to change his mind about this?"
Daryl Davis
Here's the thing, Maya, I never set out to change anybody, not the first time by any means. I never expected anybody to change. All I wanted to know was, how can you hate me when you don't even know me? That's all I want to know. And I never expected to see these people again. But when you're sitting there one-on-one with somebody, it's hard to hate them as a human being. It's hard to hate them, and it's hard for them to hate you, even though they may try.
Maya Shankar
Was there something specific that he did or that he said where you saw that there was an in?
Daryl Davis
Yeah, I began noticing changes in his behavior, in his language. He'd been to my house, his bodyguard would come with him initially, and we would have lunch or dinner at my table, but I never got invited to his house. But then when he became Imperial Wizard, he began inviting me to his house. And already he was coming down to my house without his bodyguard. He trusted me that much.
Maya Shankar
This goes on for over five years. Eventually, Roger quits the Klan, but he doesn't simply step down and hand it over to someone else. He shuts down his entire chapter, and he cites his friendship with Daryl as being the reason. Daryl since inspired over 200 people to leave white supremacist groups. And Daryl's story of changing people's minds doesn't end there. He's still doing this kind of work today all over the world. And I wanted to dig in deeper on his approach.
I know you don't like saying that you change people's minds. You inspire them to change their own minds. So when it comes to inspiring them to change their own minds, did you have to adapt your approach at all when dealing with different types of folks?
Daryl Davis
Absolutely. Because just like if somebody... You're a musician, and you play violin. And I don't know if you're right-handed or left-handed.
Maya Shankar
Left-handed.
Daryl Davis
Hey, shout-out to all the lefties. Some people are wired left-handed, some people are wired right-handed. It doesn't make one person better than the other. It just happens to be how they're wired. Likewise, how we make decisions depends upon how we're wired. Some people are wired to make decisions based upon their emotions. Others make decisions based upon their logic.
So first you determine how does somebody decide something? If they make decisions based upon emotion, then there's no way in heck you're going to get them to see your point if you bring a logical perspective. Same thing if you're dealing with a scientist or somebody who deals in data, and logic, and evidence, don't come with an emotional argument. They're not even going to listen to you. Show them the data, show them the stats, the test results. You have to go to where they are. And oftentimes, we miss that. We don't understand that because we haven't taken the time. I've seen it happen time and time again.
So a Klansman comes in into my room to be interviewed or whatever. We meet. As soon as he or she sees me, the wall goes right up. You cannot impart any intelligent information to them when their wall is up because when their wall is up, their ears are plugged, and they're shutting you out. Your mission is to bring the wall down. So I'm sitting there two feet from the guy, and he's telling me that I'm a criminal, and that I'm lazy, and that I'm unintelligent, basing all of this based on my Black skin. So when he is done radiating all this vitriol, his wall has come down because I haven't pushed back. And he's curious as to why I haven't pushed back because he's so accustomed to being pushed back on.
And so now I've thrown him off his game and he wants to know how do I feel about all this? I could go on the offense and attack him verbally and say, "No, you are the criminal. You are the ones hanging Black men from trees, and bombing Black churches, and dragging Black men behind pickup trucks," and I would be 100% correct. But rather than go on the offense, because if I did that, that wall would go right back up, and he wouldn't hear a word I'm saying. Instead of going on the offense, I go on the defense. And Maya, here's what happens. He goes home. And at the end of the day, we all do, we reflect on what transpired during the day before we go to bed. He thinks, "Man, I had a three hour conversation today with a Black guy, and we didn't come to blows. We might've gotten a little loud, but we didn't sum the blows." And in most cases with me, most people have changed their perspectives.
Maya Shankar
So I don't think many people in their everyday lives are going to be interacting with members of the Klan, obviously. But many of us, many listeners of this podcast, do encounter racism and prejudice on a daily basis. And when I first heard about your story, I thought, "Wow, if this man can convince Klan members to leave, then anything is possible." But it feels like maybe things are a little bit more complicated than that. Because in order to get someone to be less racist, a necessary step is for them to identify that they are in fact being racist. And Klan members are already brazen and celebratory in their racism. But if you were to challenge a mom or a dad who says in private that they'd prefer if their daughter not marry a Black man, they might not be willing to acknowledge this prejudice within themselves. And so I'm curious to know what advice you'd give to people who are trying to help those around them simply acknowledge their own prejudices.
Daryl Davis
By sitting down saying, "Hey, let's not have a debate. Let's have a conversation." For example, just the other day, a very good friend of mine, he's a fellow musician, and we both like music of the '50s, Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, all that stuff. And he posted on Facebook, "I wish we could return to the mindset of the '50s." And all these people gave him a thumbs up and likes and all that stuff. So I saw it and I wrote on there, "Hmm..." I said, "Maybe we should return, bring back the music, maybe bring back some of the cool cars, and definitely some of the low prices, but perhaps not the mindset."
And that's a whole different perspective. You will never hear Black people talk about the good old days because we didn't have good old days. I love the music of the '50s, but would I want to go back to that era? No. Because in that era, I would have to be drinking from a separate water fountain, riding in the back of the bus, not being served in certain restaurants. I don't want to go back to that. But see, that didn't even occur to him. Why did it not occur to him? Because he has white privilege, and it was just plain ignorance. So I had to just point it out to him. He wasn't trying to be offensive or anything like that. He just didn't know.
Maya Shankar
How do you think about the difference between labeling behaviors as racist versus people as racist, and how that difference in focus might affect people's ability to change?
Daryl Davis
You put a label on somebody they tend to carry it. It damages them. And if they have paid their price, they've given that up, they should not have to wear that label anymore. We need to break them from that. Otherwise, what do they have left? How do they feel whole? We can't do that to people.
Maya Shankar
During my time at the Obama White House, when we were designing reentry guides for people who were leaving prison, we made sure not to use labels like ex-convicts or ex-prisoners, and instead use forward-looking language like community members. And this was based on the idea that people often act in ways that strongly align with their social identities, and they can often feel fixed in those identities.
Daryl Davis
Yes, if they've paid the price, they have accepted responsibility and accountability, then why should we label them that way? Label them as to what they are at the time.
Maya Shankar
Daryl's now working with the State Department. They send him on trips to Israel, India, and other countries to talk about prejudice and bigotry and how to tackle the deep inequities of race, class, and cast. He also gives dozens of lectures a year at universities.
Daryl Davis
And at the end of the lecture, I'll do a Q&A. There'll be some students standing off in the distance, not doing anything, just milling around. When the crowd dissipates and goes away from the podium, he or she will then approach me. And they'll like look around, make sure nobody's with an earshot, and they'll say, "Oh, I enjoyed your lecture Mr. Davis. I was raised that way. My mother is in the Klan." Or "My father's a neo-Nazi. This is how I grew up. But now I'm here at university of whatever, and my boyfriend is Jewish," or "My girlfriend is Black, and I can't bring that person home. My parents will kill me, or they'll disown me." And how do they go home and tell their parents that their parents were wrong? Their parents wanted them to go and get an education, but they didn't want them to get that education.
So they've got this secret burning on their chest that just has to come out. And I'm one of the perfect persons that they can talk to about it. And I'll sit down, and talk with them, and give them some advice, and things like that, and try to smooth things out for them; help them out. I get a lot of those kinds of emails. Guys want me to talk to their brother, or some kid wants me to talk to their parents, or some wife wants me to talk to her husband.
We need something like a race anonymous thing. And I'm planning on having a museum one day. In my museum, I'm going to have a component for people to come and talk about racist spouses, or racist parents, or racist siblings, or something like that. So there will be an outlet for them, and hopefully, that can be replicated around the country.
Maya Shankar
We spent so much of this interview talking about how you inspired change in others, and I'm wondering how this whole experience changed you.
Daryl Davis
I just thought I'd meet these people, get my information, write my book, and be done; never see them again. What you and I and everybody else has heard as children is this, a tiger does not change his stripes. A leopard does not change his spots. So why would we think that a Klansman would change his ideology? People are who they are. But when somebody started changing, and then it happened again and again and again, I realized I was onto something. So what can be learned can also be unlearned. I cannot stop doing this work. So I'm making just as much time between my music and doing this kind of work because I love my country, and I want to see it improve. We spend too much time in this country talking about the other person, talking at the other person, and talking past the other person. I prefer to talk with the other person, and that has been the key to my success.
Maya Shankar
Hey, thanks for listening. See you next week for my conversation with comedian and actress Tiffany Haddish.
Tiffany Haddish
Girl, if I hadn't gone through all the stuff that I've been through, I would not be funny at all. If you think about it, everything that I am capable of that I'm able to access, it comes from all of the tragedy.
Maya Shankar
"A Slight Change of Plans" is created and executive produced by me, Maya Shankar. Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries, including our producer, Mo LaBorde, associate producers, David Zha and Julia Goodman, executive producers Mia Lobel and Justine Lang, senior editor Jen Guerra and sound design and mix engineers, Ben Tolliday and Jason Gambrell. Thanks also to Luis Guerra who wrote our theme song and Ginger Smith who helped arrange the vocals. Incidental music from Epidemic Sound. And of course, a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow "A Slight Change of Plans" on Instagram at Dr. Maya Shankar.
So Daryl, one of the things that really captivated me on a personal level about your story is that you are a musician. I was also a musician in the younger part of my life, and I studied classical violin.
Daryl Davis
Okay, I have to correct you on something. You said that you were a musician. Let me tell you something. Once a musician, always a musician. So you're still a musician.
Maya Shankar
Oh, I love that. Thank you. I think my technique would violate that assumption, but I think in my heart, I am a musician. I'll give you that.
The Host
