Dr. Maya Shankar
Maya Shankar is a cognitive scientist who served as a Senior Advisor in the Obama White House, where she founded and served as Chair of the White House Behavioral Science…
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Ever unexpectedly hit it off with someone you thought you had nothing in common with? Or met someone who seemed perfect on paper, only to discover you had no chemistry?
In this episode, psychologist and author Adam Grant talks with Maya about what makes us click with some people and not others. It turns out that good vibes can be cultivated – and there are things we can do to create and sustain them in our relationships.
Check out Adam’s new book, “Vibe: The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World.” And if you enjoyed this conversation, listen to his previous visits to A Slight Change of Plans, where he and Maya discuss changing minds and unlocking our hidden potential.
Also, A Slight Change of Plans wants to hear from you!
What helps you navigate moments of uncertainty? Maybe it was advice someone gave you, a mantra you now repeat, or something surprising you discovered in your own moment of transition. Share your reflections with us in a voice memo and tell us why those lessons have stayed with you.
You can email your voice memo to slightchange@pushkin.fm or leave us a voicemail at (646) 397-8557. You may be featured in an upcoming episode.
Pushkin.
00:24
Speaker 2
Assessing you on every conceivable personality trait that you hold, your attitudes and beliefs, and then you go and meet a bunch of people and the question is, did you have chemistry with them? But nothing in your questionnaire has any bearing on whether you click with the people you meet.
00:41
Speaker 3
We often have preconceived notions about who we'll vibe with and who we won't, but we've all had the experience of getting it wrong. Psychologist Adam Grant says the chemistry that emerges when two people actually interact is very hard to predict.
00:57
Speaker 2
There is a unique dynamic in every interaction, and trying to anticipate that by putting people in separate rooms is just a fool's errand. We need to stop thinking about separate traits as creating a vibe and recognize that a vibe is an interpersonal dynamic.
01:18
Speaker 3
On today's episode... how to vibe with just about anyone. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is A Slight Change of Plans, a show about who we are and who we become in the face of a big change. What makes us click with another person, and how can we cultivate that click over time? That's the topic that Wharton psychology professor Adam Grant explores in his new book. It's called Vibe, The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World. Adam has a knack for exploring questions that hit at the heart of this show. I've talked to him about how to change people's minds and how to unlock our hidden potential. Now he's digging into the science of how and why we connect with one another. Okay, Adam, you are... one of the most curious people that I know. And I am wondering why you were drawn to this topic of all topics.
02:29
Speaker 2
I think there are probably three big reasons. Number one, whether you agree that we have a loneliness crisis or epidemic, a lot of people feel isolated and many people are spending more time alone than they did at any point in their lives. And that does not seem to be working for their benefit or others. Two, we now have supposedly smart machines that people are engaging with to substitute for human interaction. People say they have AI companions. A bot cannot be your companion. It cannot receive your emotional support. It cannot have fun with you. It cannot experience the joy of accomplishing a goal with you. And relationships are two-way streets. So I think we have a problem there that people are actually substituting something artificial for real bonds. And then I think the last reason that I wanted to tackle this topic is very personal, which is in elementary school, I definitely went through being bullied and teased. The principal had to intervene. And in middle school, most of my friends dropped me. And I went from... like being a shy, introverted, nerdy kid who a lot of people just didn't want to talk to, to finding myself now in a world where People listen to me talking to other people. I must've learned something about how to build chemistry and closeness and it doesn't always work. I still crash and burn and fumble and stumble in lots of interactions. And I'll come out of sometimes a conversation with people that I know really well. And I think, why did I bomb that? I know this person and I've had a lot of practice at interaction in my life. What did I miss there? And then other times I will meet somebody for the first time And we just hit it off and it felt effortless. And I just really wanted to know with the backdrop of loneliness and AI and my experience, what does it take to vibe with more of the people more of the time?
04:31
Speaker 1
Yeah.
04:32
Speaker 3
So in popular culture, vibe obviously can mean a lot of things, right? You go on social media and vibe means one thing. For the sake of listeners, share how you are defining a vibe so that they can follow along.
04:46
Speaker 2
When I think about a vibe, it's more than the energy that a person gives off. It's the connection. It's the quality of connection that you have with other people. And so when you are vibing with somebody else, you feel like time disappears. Hours could fly by and it feels like it's just been minutes. You feel like you are finishing each other's sentences or maybe you could read each other's minds. And you just can't wait to spend time together. And when you're not vibing, you feel like ships passing in the night. Yeah, it's really painful.
05:19
Speaker 1
Exactly.
05:20
Speaker 3
So Adam, from the time I was a little kid, I have been obsessed with vibes. Like I feel like the theory of mine, part of my brain, for listeners who aren't familiar with the term, the ability to understand other people's thoughts is wildly overactive and overdeveloped in my head.
05:37
Speaker 1
So my earliest memories... are being.
05:41
Speaker 3
On a playground and not being on the jungle gym and like exploring and being adventurous, but just trying to suss out what other people were thinking or feeling or whether they liked me, what kind of impression I was making on them. I was wondering if there was any research showing that some people are just by nature more sensitive to vibes than others? I was thinking maybe it's correlated with being insecure, being teased or bullied.
06:07
Speaker 2
Oh, that's such an interesting question. You always do this. I need to have you read an early draft next time so that I don't miss this train of thought in the book. I think what you're describing is prototypical of a high self-monitor as opposed to a low self-monitor. High self-monitors are people who are constantly reading the room and trying to adapt to to be appropriate and accepted. And low self monitors are much more concerned with being consistent. And they see that as a mark of authenticity. They think it's fake to be a chameleon. And meanwhile, high self monitors look at low self monitors and say, do you not care about other people? Are you not willing to pay attention to social norms at all? Interestingly, one of the One of the well-replicated findings about self-monitoring is that there's both an ability and a motivation component. And I think the absolute curse is being somebody with high motivation to self-monitor, but lacking the skill. So you're always worrying about how you're being perceived, but you have trouble gauging what's appropriate in a situation. And that's one of the reasons I wrote Vibe is I wanted to unpack the things we can do to improve our connections. But I think the other combination is really fascinating. It's people with high ability, but low motivation. Yeah. I think this is universally the world's best standup comedians. They are acutely aware of every single social norm violation that happens. of every tick and sort of unexpected verbal oddity. They pay attention to all these non-verbal cues, but at the end of the day, they don't really care if other people like them. And so they're willing to say things that other people aren't, which is often really surprising and hilarious. Larry David, he observes so much about human behavior. He knows more about social dynamics than almost anyone alive. And yet he cares less than almost anyone alive about what people think of him.
08:07
Speaker 1
Yes, yes.
08:08
Speaker 2
So to go back to your question, sensitivity, I think that there are two kinds of sensitivity. I think that people with high motivation are sensitive to rejection. And people with high ability, they are reading the vibe in a room, but they're not trying to absorb the vibe in a room or shape the vibe in a room.
08:28
Speaker 1
There's more of an impenetrability, right? They can just operate in.
08:32
Speaker 2
A- Yeah, they're sort of impervious.
08:33
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
08:34
Speaker 2
Yeah.
08:35
Speaker 1
Ooh, how I admire that.
08:36
Speaker 2
Me too, to be that self-contained.
08:38
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
08:40
Speaker 3
It must intersect with confidence in some foundational way, right? How confident are we being ourselves? And I can track that in my own life, which is I'm much more irreverent as an adult than I was as a kid. And in fact, when we met at TED, you said, Maya, you're so much meaner than I thought you would be.
08:57
Speaker 1
Did I say that? Yes.
09:00
Speaker 2
I remember where we were sitting. We were sitting on the tall stools.
09:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, we were sitting at high tables.
09:03
Speaker 2
Yep. Yeah. I think you were just sort of casually... Hating on stuff. Yeah. And I was so taken aback because I had pigeonholed you. And I saw that and I thought, oh, one, this is interesting and entertaining that you're willing to go there. And two, this is how I sometimes get misperceived.
09:24
Speaker 1
Yeah. Interesting.
09:25
Speaker 2
Because people are also surprised when I'm snarky or sarcastic. Yes.
09:30
Speaker 3
I love this definition of vibe because it is an inherently relational one. It's an inherently social one, right? A vibe requires at least one other observer slash interactor. And so, yeah, when you say, oh, this person has good vibes, that's from your vantage point. You're feeling good vibes because of what they're giving you and you're giving them back.
09:50
Speaker 1
Yes. And so I think that's really helpful to clarify.
09:54
Speaker 3
And along similar lines, because it is inherently relational, you talk about the fact that a vibe is not a static, immutable thing. It is an inherently dynamic phenomenon, something that is continually shaped and cultivated by all of the relevant parties.
10:12
Speaker 2
Yeah. And you will know this better than I do. You're a cognitive scientist. I think that When people say vibe, it sounds ethereal. It sounds fuzzy. But when neuroscientists actually study the moments when we feel like we're vibing with other people, you can actually see brainwaves and heartbeats synchronizing.
10:31
Speaker 1
Yes, I love that research.
10:33
Speaker 2
Yeah, there's a signature in your body and in your brain. It's not just in your mind. But I think what we have to remember is we are constantly going in and out of sync with other people. And actually, in the best creative conversations... People go from vibing to not vibing back and forth. If you read Thalia Wheatley's research, for example, as a neuroscientist, she shows that it's actually optimal to be in sync and then auto-sync. Because if you're in sync all the time, you basically end up in groupthink. And so the process of like we lock in, we're exactly on the same wavelength, and then we look away, our thoughts drift in different directions, that allows us to bring new material to the conversation, fresh perspectives. and actually riff off of each other.
11:18
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's reminding me of how the field of attachment theory has evolved over time. We used to think attachment style was kind of set in place based on early childhood experiences. And what modern research says, actually, no, attachment style is an active state that can be enforced or undermined based on your current interactions. But moreover, you can have a secure attachment style relationship with one person in your life and a deeply insecure attachment style with someone else, you can evolve towards global security over time. But then to your point, based on your own internal state, you can be deeply securely attached to one person, but then you're in an airport, jet lagged, irritated, annoyed, and that same person can evoke insecure attachment behaviors from you. So I love thinking in this more elastic way about all of these things, because we're so eager to want to place ourselves into buckets or to place our relationships with other people into buckets. But they're temperamental and open to lots of external factors.
12:26
Speaker 2
I think that's exactly right. I think there's so many good examples of this in popular culture, too. I had such an interesting conversation with Serena Williams about Maria Sharapova and then vice versa. Because they had the iciest rivalry in tennis for years. And some of that, I think, was the press amplifying it. But some of that was, look, Maria looked at Serena as the biggest threat to achieving her lifelong dream.
12:52
Speaker 1
Of course. Rivals.
12:54
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, that elicited a ton of not only competitive fire, but also real insecurity. Post-retirement. That's gone. It just melts away. And guess what? There are a few other people that have lived that dynamic. And so they had that unique shared experience. And they're also now both venture capitalists. They're both moms. And they realize they not only have common ground, they have uncommon commonalities. And I think that is one of the most basic drivers of a bond, of feeling in the moment a secure bond, is... People think similarity is necessary for solidarity. It is not. We just need to feel similar. We don't need to actually be similar. And that similarity could come from you just like binged season four of Ted Lasso or season three of Silo. And so did I. And we can't wait to talk about it. But it could also be a really deep uncommon commonality. Like you're traveling in a foreign country and you run into somebody from your hometown and And it feels like you are best friends and you were destined to run into each other. But if you ran into that person in your hometown, meaningless.
14:02
Speaker 1
Yes, yes, yes, of course.
14:05
Speaker 3
I want to dig into what I found to be the most surprising finding in your book, which is that it's actually very hard to predict whether two people will vibe with each other based on simply their trait compatibility.
14:21
Speaker 2
Yes.
14:22
Speaker 3
Now, This, of course, feels at odds with most of our intuitions about how humans work. And you talk about the fact that even the most sophisticated AI isn't able to make these predictions, as evidenced by the low success rate on dating apps, for example, right? Like, they haven't cracked the nut. So first tell me what you mean by traits, and then talk me through the research showing that actually this prediction is quite hard.
14:47
Speaker 2
Okay, so if we try to match people on either similar or complementary personality traits— So we put two extroverts together or two introverts together. We pair an introvert with an extrovert. We are basically doing a random walk. We think that the two extroverts are going to love going to a loud party together or doing karaoke together. And the introverts are going to be happy reading a book together. But although that similarity might create some initial attraction, it does not actually predict or enhance the probability that they have a lasting connection. Because at the end of the day, you just don't know what their interaction is going to be like.
15:31
Speaker 1
Which is why you say they do chemistry reads for films, right?
15:34
Speaker 2
Yes.
15:34
Speaker 3
Because they know what Keira Knightley's like. They know what the other guy's like. But they need to figure out what happens In the presence of this fusion.
15:42
Speaker 2
Yeah, they don't know what they're going to bring out in each other. Yeah. And the same is true if you try to pair people who compliment each other. You could end up with this great sort of dynamic where the extrovert does more talking and the introvert does more listening and they're both happy. Or you could end up with the extrovert feeling like they're sort of bottled up and the introvert feeling like they're overloaded all the time.
16:08
Speaker 3
Yes, yes.
16:09
Speaker 2
And you just don't know, but you also can't assess people on single traits at a time, right? People are bringing a whole constellation of tendencies to an interaction. And so it may not even be the fact that I'm an introvert that you react to. It may be the fact that I'm super conscientious and I'm really goal-oriented to this interaction.
16:27
Speaker 1
And that.
16:29
Speaker 2
That works really well for you. Or it may be that you're really conscientious too. And I see that and I think, oh, if we both do that, we're going to have an overly scripted interaction. And so I get excited then to go on these tangents and go down these rabbit holes that your interesting observations and questions elicit for me. Right. And there are so many different permutations that could unfold that we cannot assess two people in isolation. What we need to do is we need to look at what their interpersonal dynamic is. And we need to stop thinking about separate traits as creating a vibe and recognizing that a vibe is an interpersonal dynamic.
17:03
Speaker 3
Do you mean personality traits? Do you mean, yeah, how should people think about the word traits specifically?
17:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think personality and also preferences. So let's go through the speed dating research because I think this is so fascinating. If you look at the research of Eli Finkel and Paul Eastwick, what they do is they have people fill out a questionnaire assessing you on every conceivable personality trait that you hold, your attitudes and beliefs, and then you go and meet a bunch of people. And the question is, did you have chemistry with them? And would you like to spend more time with them? And nothing in your questionnaire about you or what you claim to be looking for in another person has any bearing on whether you click with the people you meet. I will say, I think what we need to do is say, stop with the matchmaking algorithms and start. Actually, let me say this more forcefully. I think it is time to retire matchmaking algorithms. They don't work. We should stop matchmaking and start matchbuilding. A vibe is not something you select for. It's something you create over time. Okay.
18:09
Speaker 3
And with that, Tinder and Hinge declare bankruptcy, everyone. I want to quote something from your book. You say, because I love this quote so much, humans are not like Legos or Tetris blocks. You can't look at them separately and know whether they'll fit together. Chemistry and closeness are properties of interactions, not individuals. When I read this part about trait compatibility, not being that predictive of how well people will vibe. It reminded me of an example from my own life that I think tracks so well with this. So one of my best friends in the world is named Nate. He is so unlike me, Adam, on so many fronts, okay? He has tattoos all over his body. He rides a motorcycle. He played rugby, football. He would drink beer out of sneakers at large sporting events like If you showed his profile to high school Maya, she would be like, yeah, that's cute. He would have probably bullied me, right? Today, we are not only best of friends. We work together in the Obama White House. We've worked together in tech for nine years. He's one of my most trusted, wonderful, thoughtful collaborators. And I think it's because we shared one foundational thing in common, which is we're both nerds. We both like to reason through problems in a similar way. He's a math major. He has a PhD in economics. And our vibe together has been spectacular.
19:39
Speaker 1
And so just me telling you a story. That's all.
19:42
Speaker 2
I love the story. And it's actually surfacing something that has not, that just crystallized. You just crystallized an aha moment for me. which is when we look at all the reasons that we might hit it off with someone or not, you can come up with an infinitely long list of reasons not to like someone. Yes. All it takes is one bit of common ground to create a vibe. All you need is a shared goal, a compatible interest, a hobby that you both love, a value you hold in common. And that can be enough to outweigh a lot of the other ways that you just are not on the same wavelength.
20:26
Speaker 3
After the break, how to ignite a connection with someone and what penguins can teach us about how to sustain it. We'll be back in a moment with a slight change of plans. So now I want to unpack what does spark a connection between two people, what you call catalysts for connection. Tell me about what an interaction ritual is and what role it plays in determining whether two people vibe.
21:11
Speaker 2
Okay, so in microsociology, I love this concept of interaction ritual. It's basically a set of unwritten norms for conversation or communication. Okay. And every time we talk to another person or text with another person or do an activity with another person, we are potentially mindlessly like enacting an interaction ritual. So they could be really small. Like it's polite to say hello when you call someone, we don't need to do that, but we've learned a ritual around it. And for some people, it's really important for building a vibe. And for others, it interferes with the vibe. For example, I was raised in the Midwest US. And I think if you grew up in the UK, you might feel this way too, that you should always begin with small talk. You should bring up sports or the weather or the latest Taylor Swift song, because that way you're not going to offend anybody. It's not too personal. But If that's our MO, then we are resigning ourselves to having impersonal conversations. And so I think we need to rethink our interaction rituals. I've learned a lot from the research on skipping small talk and actually going right to deep talk. I was stunned when I first read the evidence that in a whole series of randomized controlled trials, that if people are just prompted to, instead of starting with something mundane, to begin a conversation with, what's your biggest regret? Or- My favorite one, instead of asking, what do you do when you meet a stranger, asking, what do you love to do? That is no more awkward. It leads to a faster connection, a deeper connection, especially for introverts.
22:53
Speaker 3
What about aligning around high stakes or peak emotion kind of problems?
23:00
Speaker 2
Okay, this is what I think fraternities and sororities are doing wrong. So we've watched a lot of college students go through hazing rituals. And I think the belief is, well, I had to walk five miles in the snow barefoot up a hill and do something really embarrassing with my pledge class. And we suffered together and that bonded us together. And we're going to inflict it on you. But Maya, what I've learned from the research is that it is not adversity that accelerates connection. It's intensity.
23:33
Speaker 1
Mm-hmm.
23:34
Speaker 2
Specifically, it's emotional intensity. When your hearts are racing and beating together, that's when you feel like you are bonding together. And so you don't have to be in pain. I love the research showing that if you visit a haunted house with somebody, As long as you debrief the experience afterward, it will bring you closer together because you experienced the jump scares and then you're laughing about them. And you have now kind of codified an emotional and maybe a little bit transformational experience.
24:06
Speaker 3
Why do you need the haunted house, Adam, when you got cable news? Just do that instead.
24:10
Speaker 1
It's cheaper.
24:12
Speaker 2
No, no. I think that's outrage, not fear.
24:15
Speaker 1
Do the haunted house.
24:16
Speaker 3
No, I mean, my first exposure to this was through The Bachelor. My listeners know this. I have extremely high brow taste. So I watch things like every season of The Bachelor, Love is Blind, both the U.S.
24:28
Speaker 1
And the U.K. editions.
24:30
Speaker 3
And you mentioned this in your book. So I was like, oh, this is so great. They always put the couples on these high arousal, high emotional intensity dates.
24:38
Speaker 2
Adrenaline.
24:38
Speaker 1
Skydiving and jumping.
24:40
Speaker 3
And they choose things that they know one person has a vulnerability to. towards, oh, this person's afraid of heights.
24:47
Speaker 2
Yeah.
24:47
Speaker 3
I always found that like deeply emotionally manipulative because you are forging an artificial bond through that high. But I like the actual real life version of this, which is if you want to forge a faster emotional connection with someone, do a mutually agreed upon activity that is still within your comfort zone together, which I think is a great idea.
25:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. Look, I think it's artificial if you're if you have opted in and so have the other people involved to an experience that you're excited to take on together or that you're hoping you'll be able to courageously brave together, you're doing that because you want to accelerate your bond. And it's not artificial, it's the opposite. When you put yourself in a high intensity or high pressure situation, that's actually eliciting a more honest, more authentic version of you, right? You can't put up pretenses or put on a happy face. The real you is gonna come out And so part of the reason that accelerates connection is people get to see each other's true colors more quickly.
25:52
Speaker 1
I love that vehicle.
25:53
Speaker 3
Okay, so that's the mechanism by which this bond is happening. That's very interesting. It's not just the physiology of the adrenaline rush and the cortisol and the remembered experience, which Kahneman would tell us about. Involves a peak in the end, right? Okay, that's very interesting.
26:08
Speaker 2
No, it's not just that. I went on a retreat a few years ago where I found out midway that after I gave my speech, I was going to be asked to bike 70 kilometers up a mountain with the rest of the group. I was the only person who didn't bring pedal clips.
26:26
Speaker 1
Yeah, or any of the gear.
26:27
Speaker 2
And I think the longest bike ride I'd ever done was 10 miles on a flat road. And this was way out of my comfort zone. I became closer to the people that I went through that ride with in a day than many people I've known for years. And it's not artificial at all. They saw aspects of me that it would take years to see.
26:49
Speaker 1
Yes. Like what?
26:51
Speaker 3
What were you expressing to them that you would have been more hesitant to otherwise?
26:55
Speaker 2
I think, well, okay.
26:57
Speaker 1
Other than sweat and tears.
27:00
Speaker 2
Okay. So Noah, who's one of the leaders of this trip, I just, for a solid hour, I was just shouting, I hate.
27:09
Speaker 3
You, Noah. I hate you, Noah.
27:10
Speaker 2
I can't believe you're making me do this. And that's not the usual me. But Noah got to see a side of me that, like, I guess that really enjoys rising to a challenge while at the same time, you know, sort of creating a common enemy to rail against.
27:27
Speaker 3
And.
27:28
Speaker 2
Noah is one of my favorite people on earth. I would do almost anything that he says, hey, want to try this? Because I know it will stretch me in ways that are good for me, even if I wouldn't have picked it. But he saw that and very few people would have witnessed that.
27:43
Speaker 3
Okay, so you've just said something that leads to another point you make in your book that was so interesting for me to reflect on, which is self-expansion, being pushed in some ways by another person can fuel greater closeness than... Mere self-expression, just being yourself with them. I loved this finding. So tell me a little bit more about that.
28:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, I had a lot of fun with this one too. We shapeshift in relationships and we also shapeshift over time. And in good relationships, people are able to express themselves. In great relationships, people actually change each other. And I think, you know, accepting other people as they are while also believing in their capacity to change is the recipe for a healthy long-term relationship of any kind. And I think too often we think, okay, once we've gotten to know each other, we're done. And no, that's not the highest level of connection. The highest level of connection comes from growing in different ways without growing apart. And in fact, I think in the ideal situation, you're growing both separately and together. Yeah.
28:54
Speaker 3
I'm reflecting on my small set of best friends, and I'm best friends with them, and I love them so much, not because they agree with me on everything, but because each of them has led me to think differently about a suite of things in the world, whether it's challenging my beliefs and my values, challenging my understanding of what I'm capable of. They have pushed me, and that includes my husband, who... Jimmy loves me more than anyone. He's also my biggest critic. He's also the one who challenges me the most. But I love that. That is really what I have felt has brought me close to people. So, yes, I resonate with that so much.
29:37
Speaker 2
Same. I mean, Alison is my best critic and she's one of the only people, and she was the first one, who would ever read a draft that I wrote of an article or a chapter and just say, this is boring.
29:49
Speaker 1
Yeah, this sucks.
29:51
Speaker 2
Yeah.
29:51
Speaker 1
It's so fun.
29:52
Speaker 2
I love her. To be able to say that plainly, that elicits a different reaction than if somebody said, oh, I think you could punch this up a little bit. Yeah. Or You know, I think it could be a little more of a page turner. And she can say that because I know that she's trying to help me make it better, not tear me down.
30:08
Speaker 3
One other insight that I found to be really compelling was around the value of sharing past experiences with another person versus just discussing future goals.
30:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think that, look, I think most people know that showing a little vulnerability goes a long way for establishing trust. Mm-hmm. I think when people default to showing vulnerability, they often say, oh, let me tell you something that I'm, I'm a little bit insecure about right now, or something I'm struggling with right now, or a goal that I'm working toward, and I'm not sure if I'll achieve it. And the problem with that is you don't feel like you're, you're getting a really full comprehensive picture of the person. And it ends up being a really abstract conversation. If you go to your past. And you say, tell me about a defining moment in your childhood. I love an astronaut crew that did this. For example, it was an American, an Italian, and a Russian, and they were having trouble getting along. And then they sat down and they shared their origin stories about the moment that they first decided they wanted to go to outer space. That immediately gave them a much fuller picture of each other, right? They could picture this kind of adversary that they were supposed to be allies with As a nine-year-old kid dreaming of landing on the moon.
31:30
Speaker 1
Yes, yes.
31:31
Speaker 2
And, you know, that, it just, it kind of, it warmed them up to each other. And it also, it really helped them find those uncommon commonalities, the things they shared that other people couldn't understand. And I think when you open up about your history, you are taking a bigger leap. You are sending a message to the person that you're talking to. I trust you enough to tell you about where I came from. Yes. And I think that is a much more powerful statement than just saying, yeah, here's what I'm trying to accomplish right now, or here's what I'm stuck on right now.
32:03
Speaker 1
Yes.
32:05
Speaker 3
So let's say, Adam, we've taken all of your advice and we've done the work to initiate good vibes with another person. What does the research show about how to sustain those good vibes?
32:17
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I think a lot of people believe that in order to maintain a relationship, they need to be in regular touch. And they worry that if they go a few weeks or whatever you do, do not go a few months without interacting. Otherwise, you're going to lose your connection. What the data show is that that is wrong. We all have family members, friends, and colleagues that we could go years without seeing and just pick up and not miss a beat. And I think that if you want to stay in touch with people, all you need is a little pebble here and there. The term pebbling comes from a courting ritual that some penguins do where they collect and present these smooth, shiny stones. And I think that signal is basically like, hey, I am suitable for being a partner and building a nest with you. And I I think that the digital equivalent of pebbling is sending other people articles, memes, reels, and links. And it sounds trivial, but I'm not talking about spamming everyone you know with random junk from the internet. I'm talking about the texts, the email, the voice note you send saying, hey, I just saw the new Spider-Man movie and there was a scene that reminded me of you.
33:44
Speaker 1
It has to be tailored, personalized. Yeah, of course.
33:47
Speaker 2
Yeah. Or I just read this article about Siamese twins who share a brain and can actually communicate telepathically. And it reminded me of a conversation we had as college roommates. That moment is a memory flex. You are showing them, hey, it's been a long time. But I remembered something very specific about you or something very specific to us.
34:12
Speaker 1
Yes, yes.
34:13
Speaker 2
And every time you send a pebble, you are making a bid for connection and you're showing a gesture of care. And those little pebbles, I think, can actually be big investments in keeping relationships alive.
34:25
Speaker 3
You also caveat by saying, if you're going to a texting thread and the only interactions you see back and forth are wishing the other person happy birthday, maybe that's a relationship to, you know, to get rid of.
34:36
Speaker 2
You know, I wrote that. Somebody sent me a Facebook message, which I almost never check, saying happy birthday. And I hadn't thought of them in years. And I scrolled up and all of our exchanges were just happy birthday back and forth. And I thought, okay, that is not a relationship worth maintaining. That's not a meaningful pebble. It needs to be more personal. And ideally, it doesn't just say I thought of you. It gives us a reason to reconnect in the present and to be in better touch in the future.
35:06
Speaker 3
Yes. As a recovering people pleaser, I mean, we talked about each of our childhoods. How do we think about not over-chameleoning in order to generate good vibes?
35:21
Speaker 2
I think that my best antidote to this these days, because I've experienced a lot of the same, recovering people pleaser here, I'm like, okay, people pleasing is not helping. Those are two different things. I am trying to get their approval. I am not actually trying to do what's best for them.
35:38
Speaker 1
Yes, yes.
35:39
Speaker 2
And I've tried to make that distinction sharply and that's been helpful.
35:42
Speaker 1
Or for us as an inactive relationship, yeah.
35:46
Speaker 2
Yeah, if I'm sacrificing myself for you, that is a long-term fail of the relationship.
35:51
Speaker 1
Absolutely, so well said.
35:52
Speaker 2
But I think the other thing that I found really helpful is just accepting it's okay not to vibe with everyone. Yeah. It's okay. I love the meme that says, why are you trying to be liked by everybody? You don't even like everybody.
36:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, totally.
36:08
Speaker 3
So Adam, on a personal level, how would you say writing Vibe has changed the way that you live your life?
36:18
Speaker 2
I think the biggest change in me, if you ask my kids or some of my close friends, is I'm actually prioritizing interactions that have no purpose in a way that I didn't used to. I think... for a long time, I would meet somebody and try to figure out how I could help them because I wanted to be useful to them. Or I would figure out what can we accomplish together because I wanted it to be a productive relationship. And I guess this is very Immanuel Kantian, but relationships do not have to be a means to an end. They are ends in and of themselves. And I think in a world where we have We have chatbots that are increasingly capable of simulating interaction. And we will, in the not too distant future, have robots that seem like they are conversation partners. I think that one of the great joys of life is connecting with other people and learning about experiences that you could never have imagined and finding out about their dreams and their heartbreaks and their struggles and their triumphs. And not necessarily having to fix their problems or solve their issues, but just gaining an understanding of who they are. I think that great interactions are like reading great novels. You don't have to get anything out of them. You just grew through the experience of reading them. And I'm having more of those interactions now, and I feel like I'm better for it.
37:53
Speaker 1
Oh, I love that. Adam, thank you so, so much.
37:56
Speaker 3
This was an exercise in discipline for me because there were so many things I want to talk about, but we did it.
38:01
Speaker 2
Well, thank you as always for having me and for both asking questions and sharing stories and experiences that light new sparks for me. You are singularly good at doing that and I'm grateful for it.
38:13
Speaker 1
Oh, thanks so much, Adam. Appreciate it.
38:39
Speaker 3
Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to check out my other episodes with Adam about revisiting our beliefs and unlocking our hidden potential. We've included links in the episode description. We'll be back soon with another episode of A Slight Change of Plans. I'll see you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me, Maya Shankar. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner, Alexander Gerriton, our editor, Daphne Chen, our lead producer, Megan Lubin, our associate producer, Sonia Gerwit, and our sound engineer, Erica Huang. Luis Guerra wrote our delightful theme song, Enjoy. Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there. And of course, a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. Bye.
39:50
Speaker 2
Bye.
The Host
