Dr. Maya Shankar
Maya Shankar is a cognitive scientist who served as a Senior Advisor in the Obama White House, where she founded and served as Chair of the White House Behavioral Science…
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Writer Kelly Corrigan always wanted a family. She craved the closeness and familiarity of a strong parent-child relationship. When her daughters were little, she relished knowing everything about their lives. But as her daughters grew older, the physical and emotional distance between Kelly and her daughters grew, too. While Kelly knew to expect this transition, it still broke her heart. In this conversation, Maya and Kelly reckon with the question of what parents and children owe each other.
For more on Kelly, check out her podcast, “Kelly Corrigan Wonders” and her PBS show, “Tell Me More.”
Speaker 1
(singing)
Kelly Corrigan
I know exactly what she ate. I know what she wore. I know who she talked to. I know what words she can use. I know what letters she can write. I know what book she's read. There's a moment there, and that moment lasts for several years, where you actually do know every single input in another person's life.
Maya Shankar
Kelly Corrigan once knew everything about her daughters. She also knew this would change. That as her daughters got older and became more independent, Kelly would know less and less about their lives. But while Kelly knew this transition was inevitable, she still felt a tidal wave of emotions when it actually happened.
Kelly Corrigan
I alternate between this very mature acknowledgement that this is how it goes. This is the relationship. This is the job. And the job is more or less done. And I had a lot of conversations with a lot of friends about... Can you believe this is the way the story goes? Wow! Wow! What an ending!
Speaker 1
(singing)
Maya Shankar
On today's show, how one woman's parenting journey went exactly according to plan and still left her reeling. I am Maya Shankar, and this is A Slight Change of Plans, a show about who we are and who we become in the face of the big change.
Speaker 1
(singing)
Maya Shankar
Adolescence is a time of incredible change for kids and the people who care for them. Neuroscience studies show that when we become teenagers, our brains undergo changes that drive us towards more independence. While this transition is considered developmentally appropriate, it can be pretty gut-wrenching for parents. Kelly writes unflinchingly about these kinds of complicated family dynamics. Her book Lift, written as a letter to her daughters, is about the emotional hazards of raising children. And her memoir, The Middle Place, touches on the unspoken contracts that exist between parents and their children.
Parenthood has been on my mind a lot lately. I've been seeing my parents get older. And my husband Jimmy and I are wondering if, after several losses and heartbreaks, we'll still try and become parents. So Kelly's story has raised some big questions for me. What do a parent and child owe each other? And how does this relationship evolve over time? Of course, we'll all have different answers to these questions. You'll hear my own surprise at several points in this conversation. My parents are immigrants and they raised my three siblings and me with a mixture of Indian and American values, which means Kelly and I have different perspectives. But regardless of our particular views, Kelly showed me just how valuable it can be to ask ourselves these questions in the first place. Now into my conversation with Kelly. I started by asking her why she wanted to have kids.
Kelly Corrigan
I don't think I ever had a conscious moment where it was like, "Oh, I definitely want to be a mother." I don't think I ever had a change of heart. It was just totally woven in from the jump. And I'm not a particularly sweet person. I wouldn't say that I'm hugely nice or patient. I'm not a good cook. I always run late. I forget a lot of things. I am not good with forms. There's a huge bureaucratic element to parenting that I would give myself a D. So it wasn't that I thought I was going to be particularly good at it, in those superficial ways of managing a family. But what I wanted, what I craved, what I couldn't wait to be a part of was the intimacy. And it is extraordinary. It is extraordinary. There is not, in my life experience, comparable relationships outside of the family frame.
Maya Shankar
You used the word intimacy, Kelly. And I'm trying to figure out what that word means to you in this context.
Kelly Corrigan
Yeah. Well, it's interesting. When we were growing up outside of Philadelphia, we only had one window unit air conditioner. And in the summer, it's 100 degrees. It's so hot. You have bug bites up and down your whole body. And one by one, my older brothers and I would walk down the hall and go to sleep on my parents' floor. So that when we woke up every day in the summer, I'd have GT's foot in my face, and Booker's foot in my belly, and we were just in there together.
Maya Shankar
I love that.
Kelly Corrigan
And I loved that we didn't ever get central air conditioning. I loved it. That was the only way, was to share this air together all night long and breathe all over each other. And people are burping and farting, and it's hilarious because you can only do it with so few people. Anything that you can only do with a handful of people your whole life... That's just got to be significant.
Maya Shankar
Yeah. I so resonate with this intimacy concept. And I think until now, I hadn't really thought about the physical component of just being present with one another in all of these bland moments that are totally lacking in significance except in the aggregate. They add up to a familiarity that we just don't experience with anybody else when we're growing up. And I remember I was absolutely the kid that was insatiable when it came to physical affection and that physical closeness and proximity. So I'm just thinking back to when... I remember in seventh grade, my family of six, we went on a cruise. And it was the most exciting thing that my family was ever going to do.
We went on one of these Carnival Cruises or something, and my parents treated themselves to the nice view of the ocean room. And us four kids were put into this little box with two sets of bunk beds, and that was my favorite thing in the whole world. We still weren't close enough in that little box together because I just found it intoxicating to be so close to these people who I loved.
Kelly Corrigan
Yes, exactly.
Maya Shankar
So you ended up having two daughters, Georgia and Claire. And I'm curious to know whether, in the early years, your expectations of mom lined up with reality?
Kelly Corrigan
So it went off the rails fairly quickly. Because when Claire was one and Georgia was two, I got diagnosed with stage three cancer and I was in chemotherapy. And so everything was up in the air. I did surgery. Then I did another surgery. Then I had my ovaries removed. Then I did a whole nother year of chemotherapy. And then it was really, finally over, about maybe 18 months after it started. And then you have to come all the way back down into your life again. And then it did start to feel like this is what I wanted. In particular, two things. One is, my husband Edward got up super early. He left at 6:00. And then at 6:01 when the door closed, Claire would pat over and jump in on one side. And at 6:30 Georgia would pat over and get in on the other side.
And there was nowhere we had to be. And they were just on me. And I remember thinking, I know this is special. I know this will end. This is what I wanted. This is what I didn't want to miss, right now, this feeling. I had no pressures on me. They had no preschool. Oh God, it was so great. And then the other thing is all these super surprising moments. A crazy surprising moment was Georgia looking at the mail and saying, "What is this?" And I was like, "Oh my God, it's your last name. That's your last name." And she was like, "What's a last name?" I'm like, "Oh my God. I just could not have seen this coming." Of course, someone has to tell you that there's such a thing as a last name, and this is what yours is. And this is what the letters are. And this is the order you write them in. And this is how you do it. And so I remember writing in my journal that night, "I taught Georgia her last name today."
Maya Shankar
You wrote in The New York Times that, "Before our children become themselves, when they are more physical than intellectual and emotional, we claim them piece by piece. The way he sits his dad, the furrow of her brow, so much like her mom's. Her flat feet, his luscious eyelashes, just like Grandpa's." I wonder, how did you "claim" Georgia and Claire? What was your version of this?
Kelly Corrigan
Georgia makes this very funny face when she's reading or concentrating that looks like she's angry, and it is exactly what Edward looks like when he's concentrating. So this little knot in her brow is Edward's.
Maya Shankar
It feels like this idea of claiming our kids... It runs deeper than their physical traits. I really want to understand, when you say, "We claim them piece by piece." Unpack that for me and what that means. What does it mean to claim children? And what does that do to our own psychology as parents?
Kelly Corrigan
Well, I think it's super dangerous, and I think wrong-headed, and I think it's probably really common. I remember the first time Claire saw the ocean. We were driving in San Diego, and we pulled over, and she ran straight for the water. And then instantly, instead of letting that just be hers, it was like, "She's just like you, Edward. She's a swimmer." Or she's just her, and she's having a great moment. And I think because uncertainty is so intolerable, and because we're narrative making machines, that it's quite common and probably misleading that we might see a kid's personality trait and decide, without even knowing we're doing it, that this is because, blank.
Either it's because you are the way you are, your husband is the way they are... Your grandparents, something about their sibling, or some moment that you observed. And so you're always deconstructing your kid's behavior and tagging it. And I don't think that's to anybody's benefit. I think it's understandable. We are dying to understand. We are eager to make sense of our children's moods, and their behaviors, and what they do that's problematic, or self-defeating, or self-sabotaging. And what they do that's spectacular, that we can't wait to tell our friends they did, and attribute that to people. Because who wants to say, "I don't know. I don't know why she does that." It's the very first thing you do, is try to figure out why.
Maya Shankar
When was the first time it occurred to you, Kelly, that your kids were doing things or learning things that you were not a part of?
Kelly Corrigan
So these girls of mine had this incredible babysitter. Her name was Sophie. And Sophie had this boyfriend Joel, and Joel had this adorable mom. And when Sophie took care of the girls, she often took them over to Joel's house. And Joel's mom was there, and the girls were adorable. And so the mom was enjoying them, and giving them little cookies, and taking them out for a swim, and whatever. All of this is unknown to me. I'm just happy that Sophie's in charge. They love her, she loves them, so it was a beautiful babysitting relationship.
And fast-forward a year and a half... We're on a little family walk. And this woman pulled over in her car, and rolled down the window, and said, "Hi, Georgia." And I thought, how could you possibly know my kid? There is no way that she could know someone that I didn't introduce her to. She's too little. She doesn't even know words I didn't tell her. I'm doing everything. I know exactly what she ate. I know what she wore. I know who she talked to. I know what words she can use. I know what letters she can write. I know what books she's read. And this is probably why it's so hard to pull your hands off the wheel. There is a moment there, and that moment lasts for several years, where you actually do know every single input in another person's life because you're involved. You're doing it. You're managing it. You're facilitating it.
Maya Shankar
You're talking about the early years. The first few years?
Kelly Corrigan
The early, early years. And then this lady was like, "Hi, Georgia." And I was like, "This is so weird." And I was like, "Hi, I'm Georgia's mom." And I remember hearing myself say, "I'm Georgia's mom," and thinking, this is the beginning of this. This is the beginning of me in the world as just Georgia's mom.
Maya Shankar
And I'm assuming as your girls got older, that you got more and more of these examples of how their lives were growing independently of yours.
Kelly Corrigan
Well, it's very interesting to be told what your child can and cannot do by any number of teachers. And there's often moments of surprise there. So you're either waiting for them to confirm all of your impressions... But if you're doing a good job, if you really have your mind wide open, you'll hear things that you think, "I didn't know that about her." I didn't know she'd loved math. Or in the reverse, I remember this teacher of Georgia's in high school said... Georgia's a great science student. She understands everything. And I said to Georgia, "God, you love science." And she said, "Oh no, I don't love science. I'm just good at science." And I was like, "Oh, right." Again, there's this fine parsing, where your category making machine of a brain, is like, "A plus B equals C." And she's like, "No, A plus B equals D."
Maya Shankar
What did it feel like emotionally when it was revealed to you that you either didn't know something about your daughters or that the conclusion you had drawn about them was not the same conclusion someone else had drawn about them?
Kelly Corrigan
Sometimes thrilling. Sometimes it was a little moment of awe, like, "This is cool." Like watching a great movie or reading a great book when you're surprised. And sometimes it was maddening because I was sure that I was right and the person was wrong. And then they had some influence in their life, and I didn't want that. Sometimes it was unnerving. It's a terrible feeling to think there's something important about your kid that you are not perceiving. It's terrifying. And it happens more and more as they get older.
Maya Shankar
When it came to their transition to college... And I can imagine how jarring that is in particular. Because like you said, when your kids are living under your roof, even if they don't share everything with you, you still get so much access to their lives just through your exposure. You might see them interact with their friends after school, or you might know their... Or you will know their calendar of activities because you're doing pick-ups and drop-offs. So you at least have this illusion that you have access to a large chunk of their lives, even if some of the emotional content of their lives is being withheld from you. And so at some point, you had to deal with physically separating from your kids when they went off to school. And I'm wondering if you can set the scene for me of what it was like to drop your younger daughter off for college and officially become an empty nester.
Kelly Corrigan
Well, it's interesting. My older daughter left two years before. And when I was taking her, the night before, we had gone to pick up stuff at Target or whatever. And she goes, "Tomorrow when you drop me off, know me. Just know me."
Maya Shankar
Know who I am and what my preferences are, that's basically what she was saying.
Kelly Corrigan
Exactly, put me first. And I was like, "I get it." You don't want a scene. You don't want tears. You don't want me talking to people. Just take the stuff in, drop it off, give her a hug, and get out of there. And I was like, "I got this. I can do this." And I think I did all right. You'd have to ask her, but I think I did fine. So fast-forward two years, I have to take Claire to University of Virginia, and she is also really ready. So we had our horrible moment, our snotty, weeping, shaking moment, can't even talk about it now, in the Airbnb. And I just said, "Do you mind? Can I just let this all out?"
And basically, what I was feeling is, this is the part of life that I was looking forward to the most, and today is the end of it. And there will be great things, of course. So much good work to do, so many people to love and help. I get it. But this is what I wanted the most, and today it's changing forever. We're never going back. And would you just mind if I had a total nervous breakdown for about five minutes? And then I'll blow my nose, and we'll get in that van, and we'll go load up your room, and I'll get out of there. And she said, "Sure." And so, I just held her, and then we went... It went so fast. Because the car, the blinkers are on. And when you pull up, there's a nice person with a clipboard. And they're like, "Hi. You're in room 318, and you have 38 minutes to move this car." And so, the blinkers are on, and somebody's got eyes on your vehicle. And you're going up and down the stairs, and then it's over.
And I was like, "Bye." And honestly, I know I probably sound like a crazy person, but I knew what was happening. And I was right. It is different. It is over. That part is over, and it's fine. I'm going to have a great 40 years, but there's no denying that the big page has been turned. And I'm something else now to them. I'm something different. You stand around with a bunch of moms on the playground, and someone says their mom's coming to town. The reaction is, "Ooh... How long is she staying?" Most of the time, that's where you end up, is that you're slightly like, "I love her, but yes... Three nights..." That's where this road is headed. I couldn't help but feel it. I couldn't help but see it in its totality. And every heaving sob was just acknowledging that this is real.
Speaker 1
(singing)
Maya Shankar
We'll be back in a moment with A Slight Change of Plans. When Kelly Corrigan's daughters moved away to college, she was eager to stay involved in their lives. But her daughters were busy getting to know their new environment and figuring things out for themselves. And so when Kelly did connect with them, she would only receive small glimpses into their lives.
Kelly Corrigan
This is when the rubber hits the road, I think, is when your kid moves out and you don't have eyes on them anymore. So you don't have a way to know their life, and their moods, and their well-being. You're not able to assess their well-being with your own eyes. You can't hear the tone their voice. You can't see their posture. You can't see whether they're eating or not eating, whether they went for a run or stayed in bed... It's a big black box, and all you have are these tiny conversations. Where 4:12 on Tuesday, they might be in a great mood. And at 4:30 on Tuesday, long after the call's over, something horrible happens.
But until you talk to them again, you're still in 4:12 Tuesday mode. And people ask all the time... Wherever you go, people say, "How are your kids?" And whatever they told you on 4:12 on Tuesday, you're like, "She's great. She's awesome." And conversely, if you catch them on 9:00 a.m. on Saturday morning and they're terrible, then they are terrible until the next time you talk to them and hear the spark back in their voice.
Maya Shankar
When it came to the transition to college, one thing that you wrote, Kelly, is you actually were given guidance by the campus psychologist that was like, "Hey, parents. Now's your time to back the F off," or something like that. Tell me more about that. That was so interesting to me, and so shocking, and not at all what happened, for example, when I was off to college. No one was even thinking through this lens of child development and individuation or any of that stuff.
Kelly Corrigan
So Claire goes to University of Virginia. And the day of drop off, there was a letter sent to all the parents of the freshman class. And it said some nuts and bolts stuff. And then it said, here's a note one of the people that works in our counseling office on campus. "It is not okay for you to be texting your kid multiple times every day. The best thing you could do for them is to stand back a little bit and let them get into some groove." Because as soon as you say to somebody, "How's it going?" The true answer is, "I don't know yet." It's going to take me eight weeks to tell you how it's going.
As a cognitive scientist, you're the one to confirm this. But I feel like once you label something, that it takes on greater meaning. That language, and thoughts, and feelings are all linked in this way, that if I make her say, "It's good. It's bad. I like it. I don't like it." "How's your roommate?" "She's okay." Then all of a sudden, that framing takes on added power to define what happens next. And that's such a mistake. And so this guy said, unequivocally, "Leave your kids alone. Let them drive. If they want to contact you, go ahead. You don't have to respond to your kid within 60 seconds."
Maya Shankar
I'm just laughing this moment, thinking back to when I felt this transition... I think it was in college at some point where my parents were so available to me when I was in high school. And in college, I went to college close by to where they live, so I'd still see them a bunch... But I remember I would call my mom or dad, and they were just too busy for me. My mom's like, "I'm sorry. I'm helping people get green cards to study in this country." And my dad's like, "I'm in the middle of a physics equation." And I just remember thinking-
Kelly Corrigan
That's phenomenal.
Maya Shankar
It was actually-
Kelly Corrigan
That's phenomenal.
Maya Shankar
Amazing, in that moment, to feel like a little bit of that lifeline was cut off. Because it meant that I was on my own a bit, and I just had to figure stuff out myself. And I never really thought about that until this moment. And now I'm realizing that was probably quite helpful for my development, that they had their own thing.
Kelly Corrigan
Oh, it's phenomenal. And this is a huge new thing for me that I'm trying to get my head around this second. Something new is beginning now, and I can make it great. I love Edward. I love my work. We're starting new things. I love novelty. I'm learning... Everything. I know how to put this together in a way that I can be happy, and productive, and useful. But it doesn't mean that something didn't end.
Maya Shankar
To articulate, what ended? Or what felt so stark about the move away from home or just maybe their adolescence? It was a decrease in emotional intimacy? Is that what you were feeling? Is that what you were grieving?
Kelly Corrigan
Well, first I was grieving knowing them in the way that someone who lives in your house. Your kid in college, or the rest of their life... How much does your mom know about you right now? How much does my mom know about me right now? Not as much as she did when I was 17. Do you know who Tim Urban is? He writes this thing called, Wait But Why?
Maya Shankar
Yeah, of course.
Kelly Corrigan
So he did this thing, where it was this little dot scale of how many days you have with your parents. And as you can imagine, when you're one, two, three, four, five, a lot of days. When Georgia was one, I had 365 days with her. When Georgia's 18, I have 35 days with her. When Georgia's 30, I have 12 days with her. When Georgia's 40, I have five days with her. Five days in a year, not that many. So I was just grieving, this is what's going to happen. This is the way this is. And it's so weird to me that something that was so consuming for me as a kid... It's all I thought about. And then when it started happening, when I met Edward, and fell in love, and got married, and then we got pregnant, and we got pregnant again... I thought, this is it. It's happening.
But I didn't have any big, really specific visions about what happens now. So it wasn't like I was moving into this awesome thing that I had been anticipating my whole life. It was like, "Oh God, this is the part where nobody really knows what they're doing and how long they should do it for." This part is so ambiguous compared to, in the first stage of your life, you're someone's kid. And then if you become a parent, then you do that for the next stage. And then the next stage is, what now? This is a time to move your focus. In my mind at night when I wake up, I literally think of this visual where I'm rotating my field of vision away from them to the people in my life right now who can make use of me. It's interesting. I have so much work. I have a TV show on PBS. I have a podcast. We produce three podcasts every week. I'm writing a manuscript, and I'm writing a children's book, right now.
Maya Shankar
Wow.
Kelly Corrigan
And it's still not enough to get them out of my field of vision. They're still right there. I still have to sweep them away and almost turn my head and leave them in their own little box over there doing whatever they're doing, which is something I will never know. It's not like I'm going to get the play by play later, where they're like, "Here's what happened in college." It's not coming. I'm not going to know. It's none of my business, honestly. And if I'm doing it right, I don't even want to know. That's where I'm trying to get to.
And so the way I do it is just this little exercise, where they're full in the frame. I used to be a photographer, so if you can imagine you're holding a camera to your eye, and you're filling the frame with your kids, and then you just rotate. And you put somebody else in the center of the frame. You put your work. You put somebody you love who needs some help. You put somebody who makes you feel useful. You put some volunteer activity. You put your spouse, anybody. Move your field of focus.
Maya Shankar
Along the way, as part of this long journey through childhood, and then adolescence, and then now they're their own adults going off into the world... Were you ever tempted to put up some emotional walls to try to protect yourself from getting hurt?
Kelly Corrigan
Probably a shooting star thought. That the minute you see them on your phone, you're like, "Hey, how are you?" The night before you're like, "I got to stop. This is crazy. I'm losing my mind here." And then, it's like being in a romance a little bit. Tina Fey did this hilarious thing on Jimmy Fallon.
Maya Shankar
I loved that.
Tina Fey
Having a teenage daughter is like having an office crush because you just always... You're thinking about them a lot more than they're thinking about you. And you just go up to their door and you're like, "A bunch of us are going to eat dinner... You're probably busy."
Kelly Corrigan
Just trying to play it cool.
Maya Shankar
But don't worry because you might be super busy, so I totally get it if you can't come.
Kelly Corrigan
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Maya Shankar
But, yeah.
Kelly Corrigan
On a bad day when I feel like my involvement is counterproductive, where I'm messing it up, I'm making it harder for them, I'm putting rocks in their backpack in some way that I'm newly aware of... And then you're flooded with shame and defensiveness. And then I always think the same thought, which is I'm going to go to Europe and live there for five years, and leave you alone, and let you do your individuating. And I'll see you when you're 28, and it'll be great. You don't need me, and I'm just making trouble. And I got to avert my gaze. So anyway, yes. My instinct is get out of the way, but I have to get out of the way in this very dramatic move. Where I'm like, "I can't talk to you for five years. Go grow up, and I'll take care of myself." And it's so stupid.
Maya Shankar
Yeah, you're going to miss me, kid. You're going to miss me because I'm actually a really good hang.
Kelly Corrigan
That's right. That's right.
Maya Shankar
I was going to say, Kelly and I are hitting it off.
Kelly Corrigan
I do find that. I do find sometimes that I'm like, "People find what I have to say to be useful."
Maya Shankar
You're like, "I have a TV show."
Kelly Corrigan
Yeah, people tune in. You wouldn't believe it.
Maya Shankar
Yeah. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes. And of course, I don't have kids, so it's hard for me to fully appreciate the relationship or what that bond is like. But I could just imagine myself feeling betrayed by the system, if that makes sense. Like, "WTF. This is the arc? This is how things are supposed to play out?" And now, here I am with my heart just broken into pieces, and feeling like I don't have the kind of intimacy that I had before with my kids. And not because I don't want it... In fact, I'm obsessed with them. I would just feel so ticked off. Did you ever feel that way?
Kelly Corrigan
Yes, I alternate between this very mature acknowledgement that this is how it goes. This is the relationship. This is the job. And the job is more or less done. And now, I'm here to enjoy them when they happen to have time to enjoy me. Can't get enough, don't need a thing. That's my motto. Can't get enough, don't need a thing. And I had a lot of conversations with a lot of mom friends about, "Can you believe this is the way the story goes?" Wow! Wow! What an ending!
Maya Shankar
Let's say that you're the organizer of the universe. You get to decide for just one moment-
Kelly Corrigan
Finally. Finally, Maya.
Maya Shankar
Like let's enter this magical... Yeah, finally. I know you've been waiting for this moment. I'm giving it to you, girl.
Kelly Corrigan
Thank you.
Maya Shankar
I want you to help me understand, emotionally, if we're solving for your needs in this moment... What would the natural arc of parent/child relationship look like? How would it have turned out on their way to college? How would it have been different? And you're in control. You're the design architect here.
Kelly Corrigan
The way it would be different is that the parents would have some switch built into us that flips at just the right moment, such that we can totally let go and be thrilled by the release. And I think some people have that. Edward, my husband, would not give you the same answers to these questions. He's delighted. He can't believe it. It's just fantastic. It's great that they're on their own. It's great they're independent. It's great that they don't need to talk to us that much. It's all turning out perfectly, and I admire him for that. I think he's probably right. I don't defend where I'm coming from. And in fact, I consider myself flawed. I just don't think I'm alone in it. I just have a feeling that a lot of us feel this way.
Maya Shankar
Yeah, it's interesting. Because even from a cultural perspective, I'm thinking about how different my own orientation is about what children owe their parents or vice versa. My parents aren't like, "Hey, is it okay if I text you or call?" They will call me whenever the hell they want, and the expectation is that I will pick up. So that's a whole nother thing, which is just societal expectations within the Indian culture about what this relationship is like. And I'm just thinking in this moment, how curious is it that your answer to my question, "Well, that my kids would just keep sharing their lives with me, goddammit." That's what I really want.
Kelly Corrigan
No, no.
Maya Shankar
I want them to keep sharing with me everything. And that's such an interesting perspective, that your answer was an adjustment on the parent's side. It involved no adjustment to how the kids' development turns out, or that striving for independence. So it seems like you're comfortable with the independence piece. Ooh, interesting.
Kelly Corrigan
One thing that makes me super happy, and I just noticed it because it happened yesterday, is when I know that they're experiencing deep intimacy with someone else... I'm delighted, and it really helps me let go. So Georgia has this great friend named Nora. Claire has this great friend named Emma. Those relationships really help me release because I think, oh my God. Whatever Claire takes to Emma, whatever Georgia takes to Nora, she's going to get great advice. They have great camaraderie. They have the kinds of conversations that, sure, in a perfect world, I'd love to have that conversation. I'd love to be in on that. I love a deep conversation. I love talking to you, but it's not appropriate for me to be the one in that conversation. What's perfect is for them to have one great friend, and have the two of them figuring it out together. And that's true of both my girls. And that makes me really happy, and it really helps me let go.
Maya Shankar
So intellectually, I'm on board. I want to know how you get your emotional side to catch up to that realization. That actually, it's developmentally appropriate for them to have that friend and for it not to be me. Because I'm just trying to think about parents listening to this right now, being like, "Kelly, you've convinced my prefrontal cortex. You've convinced my rational brain that this is how I ought to see things. But oh my God, it's a blow to feel like when they get broken up with, I'm not the first person they're calling. I'm not on their favorites list."
Kelly Corrigan
That doesn't bother me. As long as you're in good hands, I'm happy. It doesn't have to be my hands. The idea that you would be alone and in pain and not calling me, that kills me. I love you more than all the people in the whole world and anyone ever will, so let it be me. But if they have a peer, that's really my first choice. My first choice is that they would know true friendship with just one person. That is plenty. You can get anywhere from there. And I had that. I had a great friend in college, Tracy Tuttle. I talk about her all the time, and she's so important to me to this day. And I think it must have been lovely for my mom to think, "She's got Tracy Tuttle." That girl's never going to leave her, and she never did. We've been friends for 35 years.
Maya Shankar
One of the reasons, Kelly, I was so excited and eager to have you on the show is that your story is so different from the others that we've heard. Because in your case, everything did go to plan. Your kids grew up.
Kelly Corrigan
Yes.
Maya Shankar
They became their own people. You've written elsewhere that they're parting from you marks the ultimate success. That is the end goal. And yet, the reality of it totally knocked your socks off.
Kelly Corrigan
Yes, exactly. There was no change of plans whatsoever. The day they were born, this is what we would hope for.
Maya Shankar
Yeah. And I think what it's done is, it's made me expand my understanding of change, in the context of this show and in my life, to include those experiences where we intellectually know what to expect, but we can't possibly predict how it will make us feel.
Kelly Corrigan
That's right. That's right. There is a Grand Canyon between what I know and what I feel, a Grand Canyon.
Maya Shankar
And I can see that tension in this conversation. I feel like you've got these two... You've got the angel and devil, metaphorically, on your shoulders. And one of them is like, "Now, Kelly, this is what you ought to be like." And then the other part's bawling tears, just remembering the moment you let your kid go. The tension is so palpable to me in this conversation. It's an ongoing battle between intellect and emotion.
Kelly Corrigan
It's exhausting, Maya. It's so exhausting.
Maya Shankar
Yes. How do you think differently about your role as a parent now than maybe you used to? Or just given the stage of life your kids are in.
Kelly Corrigan
I don't think I'm a parent anymore. And people will go bananas over that, but I really don't.
Maya Shankar
That's fascinating. Tell me more about that.
Kelly Corrigan
For me, that's the only way for me to get in the right space. It's the only way for me to orient myself relative to them, is I'm not your parent. You don't belong to me. I'm not responsible for you. I don't own you. Your life is none of my business. You may share as much or as little as you like. I shouldn't have an opinion about everything, what you wear, who you date, how your hair is, what your major is, what job you take, what are you doing this summer... So I'm just a person who's crazy about you. That's who I am. But I am not a parent in the way that I have always defined that word.
Maya Shankar
And how did you define it before?
Kelly Corrigan
I'm responsible for you. I'm here to take care of you. And now, I'm on standby. I'm your emergency contact.
Maya Shankar
Given the new contours of this relationship, I wonder what you feel that you can reasonably expect from your kids? What do you feel that you should expect from your kids at this stage?
Kelly Corrigan
I think I should expect as little as possible. I think that the next... Really, this sounds crazy, but I think the next time I can really expect things from them is when I'm old and dying. I think everything else is not their problem. And if they want to come around, great, but they don't owe me that. They really don't.
Maya Shankar
And yet, you owe them being on standby indefinitely-
Kelly Corrigan
That's right.
Maya Shankar
Able to cheer them on no matter what, and to love them unconditionally.
Kelly Corrigan
Yes. Yes. That is the framework of the relationship, in my opinion.
Maya Shankar
And that feels like a cheap deal, Kelly Corrigan. I'm just listening, and I get what you're saying, but damn, that's hard.
Kelly Corrigan
It's the only way for it to be beautiful. It's the only way that it could be beautiful.
Maya Shankar
Okay, so I think what I'm realizing is... We all talk about unconditional love. It's a platitude. You have helped me better grasp what that unconditional love can look like in this relationship. You've made it more specific for me, which is really helpful I think, to understand what we mean when we say the platitude. This is partly what we mean. We mean accepting that we're getting the short end of the stick and being okay with it.
Kelly Corrigan
If there's any obligation from their end to me, then it can't be beautiful. It can just be the meeting of an obligation. If there's no obligation, and then you actually have time together, and you actually enjoy each other, and there's actually a nice flow between you... Then, it's beautiful. Somehow, you have to learn to relish giving it away with no expectation of return. Because then, if they return, when they return, when they love you back, when they crave you... It's magnificent.
Speaker 1
(singing)
Maya Shankar
Hey, thanks so much for listening. Join me next week when I talk to psychologist, Dr. Marisa Franco, about the science of friendship. Marisa wants us to value our friends like we value our family and our romantic partners because friends can help us access new and exciting parts of ourselves.
Dr. Marisa Franco
Each person that we interact with is an advertisement for the kaleidoscope of ways in which we can live. That learning happens through being able to see a friend engage in a certain hobby or interest, and you're like, "Maybe I would like that hobby or interest." It's that exposure that we get through each friend... And so in that way, each person that we interact with can bring out a new and different side of our identities.
Speaker 1
(singing)
Maya Shankar
A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me, Maya Shankar. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner, Tyler Greene, our senior editor, Kate Parkinson-Morgan, our sound engineer Andrew Vastola, and our associate producer, Sara McCrea. Luis Guerra wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there. And of course, a very special thanks to Jimmy Li. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram @drmayashankar. See you next week.
Speaker 1
(singing)
Kelly Corrigan
My daughters have said to me, "It's a hug mom, not a hang." So-
Maya Shankar
Kelly, I'm here-
Kelly Corrigan
So, yeah.
Maya Shankar
I'm here for the hang any day. I'll come over, and we will embrace.
Kelly Corrigan
I'll hold you anytime. You're so tiny. I can just pick you up and put you in my arms.
Maya Shankar is a cognitive scientist who served as a Senior Advisor in the Obama White House, where she founded and served as Chair of the White House Behavioral Science…